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Clinch
May 2, 2013 15:12:59 GMT -5
Post by ryansgym on May 2, 2013 15:12:59 GMT -5
I hope this format works, I am going to post up some of my basic fight plans to be critiqued, please tell me what to change and why, that why I come out with not just a better fight plan but the ability to modify it better for myself. With that said here is my basic clincher plan:
1) 6B/6/8 (clinch);
#Opponent has bleeding or swelling 1) if hiscuts > 0 then 6C/6/8 (clinch); if hiscuts > 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat;
#Fight is Close 5) 6B/6/8 (clinch);
#Fighter is Winning 5) if score > 1 then 6B/6/8 (clinch);
#Fighter is Losing 5) if score < -1 then 6/6/8 (clinch);
#Fighter is Tired 5) if endurance_percent < 100 - 5 * round then 6/6/6 (clinch);
#Fighter is Exhausted 5) if endurance_percent < 100 - 10 * round then 6/6/6 (clinch);
#Opponent is Tired 5) if opponent = tired and endurance_percent > 67 then 6B/8/6 (clinch);
#Opponent is Bleeding Badly 5) if 2 * hiscuts > round then 6C/8/6 (inside); if 2 * hiscuts > round and warnings = 0 then cheat;
#Knockout Opportunity 5) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 6H/8/6 (inside);
#Fight is Still Close 9) 6/6/8 (clinch);
#Winning by a comfortable margin 9) if score > 12 - round then 6/6/8 (clinch);
#Decision is locked up 9) if decision_won = true then 2/9/9 (clinch);
#Losing on points 9) if score < 0 then 6H/8/6 (inside); if score < 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat;
#Probably going to lose a decision 9) if 12 - round + score < 0 then 6H/8/6 (inside);
#Need a knockout to win 9) if decision_lost = true then 5H/10/5 (allout); if decision_lost = true and warnings = 0 then cheat;
#Knockout Opportunity 9) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 6H/8/6 (inside);
stop
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Clinch
May 2, 2013 16:08:17 GMT -5
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Post by JimSardonic on May 2, 2013 16:08:17 GMT -5
There is some good stuff here and some bad stuff. I will get more in depth on what I see tonight, but for now, are you familiar with fatigue, and how it works?
Another note: it is very difficult to construct a fight plan that works against anything. You are best to gear your premade fight plans towards the matchup. For example, "Clincher vs Sissy" or "Clincher vs Ropist".
Those two matches will require drastically different tactics.
It is also important to define the fighter build. What you consider a clincher, I may consider a freak clincher or even a slugger.
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Clinch
May 2, 2013 23:05:59 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 2, 2013 23:05:59 GMT -5
Ok, Bud, here goes a bit more in depth:
In creating a fight plan, we are giving the fighter a road map to victory. There are a few key factors to bumping the odds in our favor, and hopefully attaining that victory.
First, score. Obviously, we can't let the opponent score better than us if both fighters are going to be standing at the end of the fight.
Next, Endurance. The key here is that if the opponent is at 100%, and you are at 50%, then all of your STR, AGL, and SPD is half of what it started at. Effectively, your opponent is working with 70AP's and you are working with 35. That is a hard fight to win. This is why a constant theme in anything that I preach is efficiency. Efficiency wins fights. We'll discuss more later.
Stuns are good to know, especially if the opponent has KP. Or for late in the fight, if you know the opponent (or yourself) is drastically worn down.
Lets get back to efficiency for a bit.
We know that the damage equation for Webl is:
End. Damage = POW * STR * sqrt(AGG * SPD) / opp(DEF * AGL)
Breaking this down, it states that STR has a direct effect on how much damage is done. It also says that AGL has an effect on how much damage is avoided. It notes also that SPD has a minimal effect (due to the sqrt), but an effect nonetheless on damage. These numbers are calculated after the bonus for the (style) chosen, as well as after penalties for endurance loss.
You will note that there is no Chin or Conditioning in the endurance damage formula. Excess points in either of those categories is arguably a waste, and makes the fighter less efficient. I will generally start my ropists at 7 chin. Agile sluggers at 8. This puts you at a slight advantage vs KP, but a great advantage in the endurance war fights vs most other matchups. And due to Agile Sluggers and Ropists having high AGL -- with proper fight-planning, I can usually do fairly well in the KP fights as well.
Conditioning is a bit different, as it pertains to fatigue. Fatigue works as such:
A fighter's fatigue for the round is equal to AGG + 0.5*POW. However, a fighter can "absorb" up to CND/2 fatigue points without any ill effect. Any points in excess of that are subtracted from his endurance points.
Consider the difference between absorbing 7 points with 14 CON vs 6.5 points with 13 CON -- and note the extra damage that could be done or avoided with that point in STR or AGL.
Ok, lets get to the fight plan:
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Clinch
May 2, 2013 23:28:46 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 2, 2013 23:28:46 GMT -5
1) 6B/6/8 (clinch);I see this as you wanting to come out and win round one. That is ok, if you gear the rest of your plan around winning round one. However, if that is the focus, you would likely be better off just going with a 5/7/8 (clinch) or 6/6/8 (clinch). 4/8/8 is the most 'efficient' distribution of doing damage and taking damage, so straying away from there tends to lead to efficiency trouble. The problem with (clinch) is the penalty to punches thrown... so most will start with a 5B/7/8 (clinch). #Opponent has bleeding or swelling 1) if hiscuts > 0 then 6C/6/8 (clinch); if hiscuts > 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat;It's good to plan for this, but an opponent won't likely bleed until later in the fight. What I might suggest is an environmental conditional at the end that can trigger if this is truly a good option... but truth told, I don't even check cuts in my fight plans. I just use the endurance advantage they give to do maximum damage and score the KO. #Fight is Close 5) 6B/6/8 (clinch);This confuses me. Assuming there were no cuts, then the fighter would be going 6B/6/8 (clinch) since round 1. Now, with the fight being close (but score not being checked?) we change nothing? Perhaps better is: 5) if score < -1 then 6/7/7 (clinch) Targetting body does more damage, but scores worse. No target will allow the better scoring, and the 7 power will keep some pressure on damage-wise. Another option? 5) if score < -1 and endurance_percent > 90 then 5H/10/5 (inside) If you are a freak clincher with 1 AGL or taking on a KP fighter, you don't want to go this route. But if you can get a stun, you will win the round. By checking the endurance percent... at round 5, if you have taken only 10% damage, you're likely facing a sissy/slapper. They are likely winning rounds with 5/1/14, 6/1/13, and such. Make them pay! My favorite thing in this game is to throw a 5B/10!/5 (allout) to the body of a sissy. I find that after the first few hundred IP's that you deal them, sissies start ducking you The key is using the conditional to realize what the opponent is doing. If they aren't slapping, you may not want to risk using (inside). But if the opponent is 5/1/14 (outside) the entire fight, you will be hard pressed to win unless you open up and do some damage. #Fighter is Winning 5) if score > 1 then 6B/6/8 (clinch);Same thing, no change? #Fighter is Losing 5) if score < -1 then 6/6/8 (clinch);Perhaps better to gauge where you are with more than one. If score >= 0 then 5B/7/8 (clinch) if score = -1 then 6B/7/7 (clinch) if score = -2 then 6/7/7 (clinch) if score <= -3 then 5H/10/5 (inside) #Fighter is Tired 5) if endurance_percent < 100 - 5 * round then 6/6/6 (clinch);
#Fighter is Exhausted 5) if endurance_percent < 100 - 10 * round then 6/6/6 (clinch);Common new player mistake -- don't rest only a few points. Pick 1-2 rounds, and just rest. 8) if endurance_percent < 65 and score >=0 then 1/1/8 (clinch) 2 points allocated to rest effectively does absolutely nothing. Remember fatigue? 6 AGG + 6 POW * .5 = 9 fatigue. Assuming 14 CON, at most, you can absorb 7 -- leaving two endurance points of damage on your rest? #Opponent is Tired 5) if opponent = tired and endurance_percent > 67 then 6B/8/6 (clinch);I like where you're going with this... but 6B/8/6 isn't ideal. If you want to drop to 6 DEF, I would recommend 5B/9/6 (clinch). #Opponent is Bleeding Badly 5) if 2 * hiscuts > round then 6C/8/6 (inside); if 2 * hiscuts > round and warnings = 0 then cheat;Once again, not my cup of tea, but to each their own. Whereas cuts can win you a fight, they are unpredictable. Endurance and score are finite. #Knockout Opportunity 5) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 6H/8/6 (inside);Better, 5H/10/5 (inside), or 5H/9/6 (inside) #Fight is Still Close 9) 6/6/8 (clinch);Don't forget stuns, especially late in the game. If you have attained an endurance advantage, stuns should be no problem at this point. #Winning by a comfortable margin 9) if score > 12 - round then 6/6/8 (clinch);What is the thought behind this? If the fight is all but locked up, I would stick to the body, and be efficient. 5B/7/8. Just in case he pulls something crazy out of his ass -- if you can keep an endurance advantage, his desperation in the endgame will likely lead to a KO in your favor. #Decision is locked up 9) if decision_won = true then 2/9/9 (clinch);I see where you're going with this... but 4/7/9 is actually more effective. #Losing on points 9) if score < 0 then 6H/8/6 (inside); if score < 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat;
#Probably going to lose a decision 9) if 12 - round + score < 0 then 6H/8/6 (inside);Similar to prior discussion -- 5H/10/5 is likely better. #Need a knockout to win 9) if decision_lost = true then 5H/10/5 (allout); if decision_lost = true and warnings = 0 then cheat;Very common new player error. Allout will not win you any fights unless: 1) You have KP. or 2) You are (allout)ing the body of a fighter that is slapping instead of adding any power. There is the odd chance that you could allout and catch them in a 1/1/8 rest round -- which does happen -- but not likely in rounds 9-12. #Knockout Opportunity 9) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 6H/8/6 (inside);5H/10/5 or 5H/9/6, as stated.
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Clinch
May 2, 2013 23:41:59 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 2, 2013 23:41:59 GMT -5
This is one of my stored fight plans, called "Stupid f***ing Olympic Plan".
Presumably I didn't expect it to do well for me in one of the Olympics, I don't really remember. But it looks to work along some similar lines of logic that you have:
#Get a lead. I want them to have to catch up in score (AGG/POW goes up, DEF goes down) so I can really do some damage. 1) 6/6/8 (clinch) 2) if score <= 0 then 7/5/8 (clinch) 3) if roundswon = 0 then 5B/9/6 (clinch) if roundswon = 1 then 7/5/8 (clinch) if roundswon = 2 then 6/6/8 (clinch)
#That's enough jockeying for a lead, time to bring the pain. 4) if score >= 2 then 4B/9/7 (clinch) if score = 1 then 5B/8/7 (clinch) if score = 0 then 5B/8/7 (clinch) if score = -1 then 7/5/8 (clinch) if score = -2 then 5B/8/7 (clinch) if score <= -3 then 5H/10/5 (inside) #^Stun line, as noted in your FP. If he is still beating me after as aggressive as I got, then he is already opening up.
#If I dropped in score, get it back. Apparently my scout showed that this fighter was extremely susceptible to taking a beating if behind on score. 5) if score <= 1 then 8/5/7 (clinch) if score > 1 then 4B/9/7 (clinch) if opp < 2 and endurance_percent > 66 then 5B/8/7 (inside) #^ That last one is a beatdown line. It says that "If at this point in the fight, I'm in better shape than the opponent, then beat him senseless this round at whatever cost necessary."
#back to bringing the pain. Note the stun line if score < 1 6) if score >= 1 then 4B/9/7 (clinch) if score < 1 then 5H/10/5 (inside) if opp < 2 and endurance_percent > 66 then 5B/10/5 (inside) if opp < 2 and endurance_percent <= 66 then 8/5/7 (clinch) if opp < 2 and endurance_percent > 66 and score < 0 then 5/9/6 (inside) if opp < 2 and endurance_percent <= 66 and score < 0 then 6/8/6 (inside)
#back to scoring. Even some desperation clinch-slapping in there. Note the rest, also. Rounds 7&8 are the most common rest rounds, i would say. 7) if score <= 1 then 8/5/7 (clinch) if score <= -1 and opp = 2 then 10/1/9 (clinch) 8) if score <= 0 then 9/5/6 (clinch) if score > 0 and endurance_percent < 70 then 1/1/8 (clinch) 9) 5/9/6 (inside) if endurance_percent > 66 and opp = 1 and score <= 0 then 5H/10/5 (inside) #^ Stun line, again, or possibly going for the win. Probably more effective would be "and opp < 2", but that isn't terribly likely at this point.
#7/7/6 is a strong scoring line that does some solid damage. If the opponent is weak, it could land a stun as well. 10) if endurance_percent > 66 then 7/7/6 (inside) if endurance_percent > 66 and score <= 0 then 13/1/6 (clinch) 11) 13/1/6 (clinch) if score = 1 then 5H/11/4 (inside) if score > 1 then 4B/10/6 (clinch) 12) 5H/11/4 (inside) if opp > 1 then 13/1/5 (clinch)
#This line says if I'm landing my stun shots, then go for the win -- or at least the won round by stun. if (hisstuns + mystuns > 0) then 5H/11/4 (inside)
if opp = 1 and endurance_percent < 66 and score <= 0 then 9/5/6 (clinch) if opp = 0 then 5H/11/4 (inside)
#global conditionals 1) if warnings = 0 then cheat if opp = 0 and score <= 0 then 5H/11/4 (inside) if (round = 9 or round = 10) and endurance_percent < 70 and score >= 1 then 1/1/7 (clinch) if score > (14 - round) then 3H/7/10 (clinch) #^always allow a little leeway due to the judges inaccuracy. Where some may see a won round, some may see a tie. Don't bow out early and get stuck with a draw that should be a win.
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Clinch
May 2, 2013 23:49:43 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 2, 2013 23:49:43 GMT -5
Finally:
There is a tactic that computer programmers use in designing programs, sometimes. They write out in words what they want to happen, and then go back in and code it in place. This works extremely well in Webl, too.
Step 1, Scout.
Get a general idea of the build of your opponent. Know how he fights against builds like yours -- or at least opponents of similar height. Note any unusual circumstances that may work to your advantage (perhaps he _always_ rests in round 8? Eff that. Allout him to the head and win.) But you had best be sure he will do what you expect.
Step 2, Write the words.
#To start, I want to keep score close but get an endurance advantage. #I need to ensure that if he switches to sissy slapping, I can take advantage. #I expect that by round six, I can have opp = 1. #If I don't, I can up my body blows as long as score cooperates. #If I do, and score is in line, then I can keep doing what I'm doing, because it's working. #I have rested in round 7 my past four fights. I'd like to hold off on resting until round 8 this time, just to not be predictable. #Near the end, I want to take a shot to see if I can stun him. If I can stun him, I may go hard to the body one more round before trying for the KO. #From round ten on, I will want to either Go for the stun/KO #Slap to score #or lock up in a 4B/7/9 (clinch) and await victory.
Pretty simple and logical, right? That fp pretty much writes itself, no?
If you want a little practice -- write it! Add your own tweaks, your own thoughts. The worst you can be is incorrect, and better to be wrong here than in the fight!
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Clinch
May 3, 2013 4:56:07 GMT -5
Post by ryansgym on May 3, 2013 4:56:07 GMT -5
ok, what do you think of this as a start:
1) 5B/7/8 (clinch);
5) if score >= 0 then 5B/7/8 (clinch)
5) if score = -1 then 6B/7/7 (clinch)
5) if score = -2 then 6/7/7 (clinch)
5) if score <= -3 then 5H/10/5 (inside)
5) if 2 * hiscuts > round then 6C/8/6 (inside); if 2 * hiscuts > round and warnings = 0 then cheat;
5) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 5B/9/6 (inside);
7) if endurance_percent < 65 and score >= 0 then 1/1/8 (clinch)
9) 5/7/8 (clinch)
9) if score > 12 - round then 5B/7/8 (clinch)
9) if decision_won = true then 4/7/9 (clinch)
9) if score < 0 then 5H/10/5 (inside) if score < 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat
1) if hisstuns > 0 then 5H/10/5 (inside)
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Clinch
May 3, 2013 20:25:01 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 3, 2013 20:25:01 GMT -5
ok, what do you think of this as a start: 1) 5B/7/8 (clinch); 5) if score >= 0 then 5B/7/8 (clinch) 5) if score = -1 then 6B/7/7 (clinch) 5) if score = -2 then 6/7/7 (clinch) 5) if score <= -3 then 5H/10/5 (inside) 5) if 2 * hiscuts > round then 6C/8/6 (inside); if 2 * hiscuts > round and warnings = 0 then cheat; 5) if opponent = weak and endurance_percent > 50 then 5B/9/6 (inside); 7) if endurance_percent < 65 and score >= 0 then 1/1/8 (clinch) 9) 5/7/8 (clinch) 9) if score > 12 - round then 5B/7/8 (clinch) 9) if decision_won = true then 4/7/9 (clinch) 9) if score < 0 then 5H/10/5 (inside) if score < 0 and warnings = 0 then cheat 1) if hisstuns > 0 then 5H/10/5 (inside) Let's take a step back. First -- hop over to "Fighter Builds" and read the post on the 'cycle of webl'. Next -- let's pick a specific matchup that you want to focus on. Clincher vs what? Your choice of Sissy, dancer, CPer, ropist, agile slugger, slugger, flasher, or KP Dancer. Then -- we can tailor a plan towards that matchup, and the tactics we're likely to see vs them. Whereas gyms DO use massive premade fightplans that cover most circumstances -- that is something one can master after they understand the basics. For now, if you don't know how to win a Clincher vs Sissy... how will you win a clincher vs sissy AND ropist AND slugger? We'll get there, Bud, but take it one step at a time
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Clinch
May 3, 2013 21:54:10 GMT -5
Post by Sanford on May 3, 2013 21:54:10 GMT -5
Ryan,
1st, you need to get away from the east fight plan creator. 2nd, I respect Jim as a clincher manager, but imo, clincher fight plans shouldn't be following score nearly as much as following endurance. I went through my old clincher fight plans looking for the most basic one and I realized that my most basic one is too difficult for me to understand atm. 3rd, Your clincher fight plans should be geared toward your opponent's build and fighting style.
Nearly all my clincher fight plans start with 4b/8/8, 5/7/8 or 5b/8/7 (clinch) and checks for endurance. The less damage my fighter is taking, the more power my fighter will use. Here is a snippit fron a clincher fp:
4) 5B/8/7 (clinch); if endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 4 then 5B/9/6 (clinch); if endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 3 then 5B/10/5 (clinch); if endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 2 then 5B/11/4 (clinch);
Clinchers, having low agility, tend to stun easier than all other fighters. It may be important to check for stuns along with checking endurance:
7) 5B/9/6 (clinch); if mystuns <= hisstuns and endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 4 then 5B/11/4 (clinch); if endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 3 then 5B/11/4 (clinch); if mystuns > hisstuns and endurance_percent > 100 - (round - 1) * 3 then 5B/10/5 (clinch); if endurance_percent < 100 - (round - 1) * 5 then 1/1/8 (clinch);
Note the rest line. You fp's rest lines are only giving 2 points of rest, which is pretty much useless. 10 points of resting will help much more and notice my defense is still at 8.
The snippits that I have above are from a freak clincher fp where the clincher's agility is extremely low. A basic clincher would use inside a good part of the time.
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SIN
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Clinch
May 4, 2013 15:52:11 GMT -5
Post by SIN on May 4, 2013 15:52:11 GMT -5
Ryan,
I must agree with Sanford on this one. When using STR based fighters you should tend to focus your fight plan more towards dealing damage instead of winning rounds. Especially early in the fight. The trick to this is dealing as much damage as possible without opening yourself up too much. Use endurance conditionals to dictate your lines. Before we move into various endurance conditionals and combinations, how about we practice your knowledge of the sim... Below are a few lines used to track endurance loss. See if you can determine which line will run in round=5 if your endurance = 81 percent
4B/6/10; <base line>
if endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - (round - 1) * 50 then 4B/7/9; <line 1> if endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - (round - 1) * 45 then 4B/8/8; <line 2> if endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - (round - 1) * 40 then 4B/9/7; <line 3> if endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - (round - 1) * 30 then 4B/10/6; <line 4> if endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - (round - 1) * 25 then 5B/10/5; <line 5>
NOTE: THIS IS JUST TO PRACTICE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE SIM/FP LINES. VERY GENERIC. USE BASIC ARITHMETIC TO DETERMINE WHICH LINE WILL TRIGGER IN ROUND 5 IF YOUR FIGHTERS ENDURANCE = 81 PCT.
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Clinch
May 4, 2013 16:11:57 GMT -5
Post by JimSardonic on May 4, 2013 16:11:57 GMT -5
I do agree that damage is top priority in most instances...
But do not let score get away. You aren't built to effectively play catch up.
There is something to be said, as well, about jumping out to an early points lead to force an opponent to open up. But perhaps best to stick with the basics for now and adjust as needed from there.
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SIN
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Clinch
May 4, 2013 16:33:40 GMT -5
Post by SIN on May 4, 2013 16:33:40 GMT -5
I do agree that damage is top priority in most instances... But do not let score get away. You aren't built to effectively play catch up. There is something to be said, as well, about jumping out to an early points lead to force an opponent to open up. But perhaps best to stick with the basics for now and adjust as needed from there. Agreed, if you are trying to open your opponent up, that would work, but the absence of endurance conditionals in the fp has me thinking he needs to brush up on that area of his game. No?
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Clinch
May 6, 2013 11:47:02 GMT -5
Post by ryansgym on May 6, 2013 11:47:02 GMT -5
ok, question, would it be a legitimate strategy to against a sissy or a dancer start off the fight with 5H/10/5 and try and get a stun in the first round and then pound them to the body when they try to open up for score more, or does that provide too much risk of taking damage myself/ not enough reward?
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SIN
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Clinch
May 6, 2013 11:57:06 GMT -5
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Post by SIN on May 6, 2013 11:57:06 GMT -5
That's when you will want to scout his tendencies. Will he open up when he loses a round or two? But as a clincher you should be targeting body. Where him out then use "if opp < 1 then 5h/10/5 (inside)". You shouldn't target head until a) you have won the endurance battle b) you are expecting a flash. If he's a true sissy (1 str - 0kp) go all out to his body and ignore score altogether.
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SIN
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Clinch
May 6, 2013 12:19:15 GMT -5
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Post by SIN on May 6, 2013 12:19:15 GMT -5
But to answer your question about going 5h/10/5 (inside) in the first round? As a clincher? No.
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