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Ropists
Jun 1, 2013 18:41:38 GMT -5
Post by AltruisticArtist on Jun 1, 2013 18:41:38 GMT -5
Quick question about ropist builds. Typically you use VH or VL depending on what your build is to maximize your attributes over your opponent. Although a ropist is high in agility does it make sense for him to go VH to maximize his Agi advantage over taller fighters?
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Ropists
Jun 1, 2013 19:03:37 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by JimSardonic on Jun 1, 2013 19:03:37 GMT -5
Vhvy is where I run my ropists.
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wr
Posts: 19 
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Post by wr on Jun 2, 2013 0:17:27 GMT -5
What Jimbo said. I go very heavy.
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Ropists
Jun 2, 2013 12:52:01 GMT -5
Post by Termit on Jun 2, 2013 12:52:01 GMT -5
I'm not an expert on Ropists despite the fact I have even one sitting on 28/28 with win streak, but what I read and heard they have to be VH build. VL build just doesn't make any sense for this type of fighter
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Ropists
Jun 2, 2013 20:50:23 GMT -5
Post by ghosts on Jun 2, 2013 20:50:23 GMT -5
The only way VL would make sense is if you were making a speedy ropist - but again I suppose that's more of a dancer. By making them VL (I also make all mine VH) and more speedy counter would be a viable option against other ropists.
It will certainly limit the advantages you have fom being a ropist when you have a VL build.
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Ropists
Jun 2, 2013 21:19:13 GMT -5
Post by AltruisticArtist on Jun 2, 2013 21:19:13 GMT -5
Just wanted to clarify, as I felt the general info in this forum was strength fighters go VH and agility/tall fighters go VL.
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Ropists
Jun 3, 2013 20:22:28 GMT -5
Post by jimmytheharp on Jun 3, 2013 20:22:28 GMT -5
Always Always Always Very Heavy. The whole point of the build is to get as close to maximum efficiency as possible when using ropes (ring). A very light build would ruin your efficiency as more of your ap's would be invested in height...
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Ropists
Jun 3, 2013 22:13:38 GMT -5
Post by ghosts on Jun 3, 2013 22:13:38 GMT -5
Just going to play devil's advocate here Jimmy.. Again VH is definitely the prefered option and the way most people should go however there are definite advantages to having a fighter that is taller than he should be in his weight division. You get the bonus points for being taller those bonus points to agility and speed don't reduce as you get tired.
2 featherweight ropists going at each other with "no luck" selected.
Build 1
Str - 13
Spd - 13
Agl - 18
Chn - 8
Cond - 13
Height - 4 (5ft4)
Build - VH
70aps
Build 2
Str - 13
Spd - 12
Agl - 17
Chn - 8
Cond - 13
Height - 6 (5ft6)
(VL or L)
70aps
Both fighters going 4B/8/8 (no style) The fight ends in a draw with both fighters losing exactly the same endurance each round.
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Ropists
Jun 4, 2013 0:29:17 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by JimSardonic on Jun 4, 2013 0:29:17 GMT -5
If it was exactly the same, wouldn't that mean it is affected by fatigue?
Thus, just a clever way to throw off scouting.
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Post by ghosts on Jun 4, 2013 0:48:53 GMT -5
If it was exactly the same, wouldn't that mean it is affected by fatigue? Thus, just a clever way to throw off scouting.
The fighters without style bonuses (worked out prior to height calculation) are exactly the same once the height calculation is added therefore the endurance, fatigue, stun damage is exactly the same for the whole fight.
If the shorter fighter uses ring (due to the agility advantage) - Fighter 2 eventually picks up a win on points by taking one 1, round 9. The fatigue penalty for using ring eventually creates enough of a difference in endurance for the taller fighter to take a round.
If the shorter fighter uses clinch he loses 120-115 but wins the endurance battle 90.5 to 80.3
Yes it's a clever way to throw scouting off - which at the end of the day can give you an edge over all managers are the default position for anyone simming fights is VH or VL |
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Ropists
Jun 4, 2013 10:39:06 GMT -5
Post by jimmytheharp on Jun 4, 2013 10:39:06 GMT -5
Let the first fighter use ring or ropes. Extra agility is the advantage.
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Ropists
Jun 4, 2013 18:34:58 GMT -5
Post by ghosts on Jun 4, 2013 18:34:58 GMT -5
Let the first fighter use ring or ropes. Extra agility is the advantage.
When the shorter fighter uses ropes (doesn't gain any advantage by using it due to how the ropes style bonus works) the shorter fighter loses 120-118 and is also slightly down on endurance.
To many people subscribe to the theory that you must use VH - Yes from a pure maths side of things it make absolute sense but again I want to illustrate that there are still advantages both scouting a sim wise to not subscribing to that theory.
Freak Clinchers are another example where using VL can be more beneficial than VH - by havign them VL you can minimise some of the advantages or using counter against you.
I have never run sluggers with any sort of success but counterpunchers can cut them to pieces, would minimising the height difference (therefore minimising the advantage of counter) be more beneficial, we are talking 2 or 3 points on height instead of strength? |
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Ropists
Jun 5, 2013 14:22:39 GMT -5
Post by jimmytheharp on Jun 5, 2013 14:22:39 GMT -5
I really think having endurance efficient fighters with VH build is the only way to go. Height may give you a bit of help against counter punchers in lower regionals, but there's also a chance that your agility advantage will shrink as well leaving you with less speed, a little more strength, and a point or two of agility advantage. And then what happens in contenders when non-kp counterpunchers are less prevalent due to ap loss? The extra height leads to matchup issues against fighters you should be crushing. BK was the proving ground for all of this. Only in heavyweights did endurance fighters struggle when Star Inc began running heavyweight counterpunchers with height and weight advantages. The math didn't work at lower weights because of weight.
Freak clinchers are not endurance efficient by nature. The point of having <= 8 agility is to exploit the ropes loophole. Classically built sluggers (the Simon types with > 10 agility), struggle against agile sluggers and ropists because ropes against them is too strong. At lower weights, forget it.
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Ropists
Jun 5, 2013 18:56:06 GMT -5
Post by ghosts on Jun 5, 2013 18:56:06 GMT -5
I really think having endurance efficient fighters with VH build is the only way to go. Height may give you a bit of help against counter punchers in lower regionals, but there's also a chance that your agility advantage will shrink as well leaving you with less speed, a little more strength, and a point or two of agility advantage. And then what happens in contenders when non-kp counterpunchers are less prevalent due to ap loss? The extra height leads to matchup issues against fighters you should be crushing. BK was the proving ground for all of this. Only in heavyweights did endurance fighters struggle when Star Inc began running heavyweight counterpunchers with height and weight advantages. The math didn't work at lower weights because of weight. Freak clinchers are not endurance efficient by nature. The point of having <= 8 agility is to exploit the ropes loophole. Classically built sluggers (the Simon types with > 10 agility), struggle against agile sluggers and ropists because ropes against them is too strong. At lower weights, forget it.
@ 110 APs
Fighter 1
Str - 24
KP - 0
Spd - 21
Agl - 33
Chin - 10
Cond - 17
Height - 5ft4
Build - VH
Fighter 2
Str - 23
KP - 0
Spd - 21
Agl - 32
Chin - 10
Cond - 17
Height - 5ft6
Build - Light
Running both these fighters against a slugger going with them going 4B/8/8 (clinch) Vs 4B/8/8 (ropes)
The both times the ropist wins 120-108
The VH build finishes with 102.7 endurance and the slugger with 92.8 endurance
The Light build finishes with 97.6 endurance and the slugger 102.7 endurance
Yes the VH build does more damage and takes less as it is more efficient as you have rightly pointed out (and what I have agreed with the whole time).
However the Light build still wins the fight with 5 more points of endurance loss against the VH ropist and 10 points less damage vs slugger. |
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Ropists
Jun 5, 2013 19:13:55 GMT -5
Post by ghosts on Jun 5, 2013 19:13:55 GMT -5
Basically the point I'm trying to make is
I agree 100% with you that the VH build is a much more damage efficient fighter. That is not in question.
However the Light build is still a viable option and will still provide just as much a handful for opponents with the added bonus of throwing scouting out.
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