KP DANCER

Written by Albino:



KP DANCERS:
upside - very versitile, can win by KO or by decision. KP ensures sluggers dont open up too quickly, reducing ips.
downside - higher CHN is usually needed, so after the extra KP and CHN they become very inefficient to deal endurance damage. have problems vs fighters with high CHN.
favored opponent - any fighter with low CHN
feared opponent - any fighter with good CHN and good STR

how to make KP dancers:

start with 9 or 12 STR (6 in higher divs) and maxed KP, 10 CHN, 14-15 CND, even SPD and AGL. cuts can be low or normal. use lightish build for kp dancers to maximize counterpunch effectiveness. kp dancers created with more than 10 STR can be disguised as a flasher if they use a heavy build since 12 STR with 4 KP can flash opponents at low statuses.

by the time kp dancers reach contenders they should have at least 12 STR if not 15, personally i like to have 15 STR to continue flash ability, while still can easily beat opponents on points. once you reach contenders, SPD doesnt need to be close to AGL. stop training SPD at 20 because you need the high AGL for defence (not fp defence). the higher the defence the more the opponent has to opponent up to hurt you, and when they do, BANG!!! the lower the STR the more AGL you should have, since more STR can still flash, they wont need as much AGL, instead they should get SPD. kp dancers should have 13 CHN in contenders.

--KP dancers vs flashers:

with good CHN 4H/8/8 (counter) should be enough, if you dont have that CHN 4H/6/10 (counter) will be better. in both cases if the flasher allouts you should win, you have to worry about inside. if he can KO you with 6H/11!/3 (inside) you should put an extra point or two on DEF. 4H/8/8 (counter) the whole fight can easily win, especially if the KP dancer is the higher STR high SPD variety.
other options/tactics- 4/4/12 (ring) can work against a fighter who uses inside, or a big allout attack, but a 4H/9/7 (allout) may get you.
other options/tactics- 4/1/15 (outside) if he stuns you then there is no point, the aim here is to win rounds. but if he stuns you with DEF, go 4H/9/7 (counter) in the next round.

--KP dancers vs KP dancers:

my most hated matchups. KP can be very difficult to scout at times, and not to mention the amount of options involved when two versitile fighters fight each other. there are IMO 3 main options:

1. slap - slap aggressively enough to win rounds, but with enough DEF so he cannot flash you.

2. dance - use POW equal to his KP (DEF should be high than POW), this almost always ensures that you survive an allout attempt and KO him.

3. flash - not necessarily in round 1, kp dancers are not barbarians instead, slap/dancer till you lose a round then flash (so long as the lost round wasnt due to stuns). usually a later round KOs are more successful when the both fighters have opened up to score rounds.

all of the above should be mix up though out the fight, stun the opponent in each fight if you can, this makes his harder for the opponent to predict what you will do and keeps them honest.
other options/tactics- if you are the stronger dancer and he is prone to slapping, 5B/10/5 (inside) may work out well if your not confident enough to use 5H/10!/5 (allout).

--KP dancers vs 0 KP dancers:

dance like a sissy till you lose a round then allout his ass! you should at least KD him if not KO him, and if you dont lose a round then you win anyway. these dancers usually invest in extra CHN though, you may have to slug if he has excessive CHN.

other options/tactics- win by stunning him in every round. very effective if you can pull it off, they usually open up more because they are losing rounds. beware dancers with STR > 10 that decide to slug.

--KP dancers vs sluggers:

key here- all or nothing, ie 5H/11/4 (counter) or 4/1/15 (outside) otherwise ips could end your career prematurely.

you will want to KO him early if you can, the longer the fight the more ips you will get. sluggers like to use clinch vs kp dancers so allout is your best option here if you have the higher KP type. if not 4/1/15 (outside) could win you rounds while he is scared and using clinch. again the high CHN sluggers will be a problem, counter wont hurt them enough, they use clinch maybe in the first few rounds only then switch to inside to weaken you. if you allout early and dont get them then at least you only take 25 ips instead of possible 100's. never try to outslug a slugger with a kp dancer.

--KP dancers vs clinchers:

generally clinchers are fairly immune to counter. if they have > 10 AGL then you can try counter to KO them, if they have < 10 AGL counter isnt worth it, use the ring. if the clincher has good CHN counter/ring wont be enough, you may need to allout if you want to KO him, if you miss he probably wont KO you, instead he will deal about 50 damage, effectively ending your chance to win. again 4/1/15 (outside/ring) will win rounds, especially since clinch reduces AGG. never try to outslug a clincher with a kp dancer.

I'm not sure about that diminishing returns of speed here, I have won WTs with 25+ SPD fighters. Even 27 or 29 (in the fight) if I remember correctly (I beat AoP then). I remember for sure AoP/Morton said something like SPD can be even 30 before diminishing returns

 I'm pretty sure Morton told me Speed can be 20 before diminishing returns, but then again, Morton told me quite a few things that I no longer believe.

Posted by: Morton`s
Date: Sunday 10:49 AM

This has been discussed many times. So, let me explain it as tersly as possible. Then, if you need those explanations expanded, we can do that. :D

STR and AGL do not have diminishing returns. In the calculations for damage and defense, they linearly affect the results of the calculations.

SPD on the other hand is subject to calculations that use the square root of its value. SQRT(AGG * SPD), so the larger SPD becomes, the less net gain it has post formula.

Similarly, in the punches landed formula:

PERCENT = SPD*SPD / (SPD*SPD + k * sqrt(k*opp(AGL)))


The greater SPD is, the less affect if has on increasing the percentage of punches landed. going from 20 to 25 SPD, you would see a larger percentage increase in punches landed than you would see if going from 25 to 30.

That is why they say there is a diminishing returns, at some point, the gains from higher speed do not outweigh the lost damage or defensive potential from APs spent in SPD over AGL or STR

---

I may have just misread this. I'll keep looking through my notes.

We can illustrate this with some hypothetical numbers. Assuming an efficient 4/8/8, so AGG = 4 we have the following.

SPD = 4; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*4) = 4;
SPD = 6.25; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*6.25) = SQRT(25) = 5; (SPD increased 2.25 for a 1 point gain in the SPD damage component)
SPD = 9; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*9) = SQRT (36) = 6; (SPD increased 2.75 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component)
SPD = 12.25; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*12.25) = SQRT (49) = 7; (SPD increased 3.25 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component)
SPD = 16; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*16) = SQRT(64) = 8; (SPD increased 3.75 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component)
SPD = 20.25; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*20.25) = SQRT(81) = 9; (SPD increased 4.25 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component)
SPD = 25; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*25) = SQRT(100) = 10; (SPD increased 4.75 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component) 
SPD = 30.25; SQRT(AGG*SPD) = SQRT(4*30.25) = SQRT(121) = 11; (SPD increased 5.25 for the next 1 point gain in the SPD damage component) 


As you can see, SPD has diminishing returns in damage. However, SPD can still provide higher damage increases when you have low SPD or high STR. Every 1 point gain in STR increases your unmitigated (numerator) damage by POW*SQRT(AGG*SPD), while every 1 point increase in the speed component of damge, SQRT(AGG*SPD), increases your unmitigated damage by POW*SPD. Keeping our 4/8/8 fight plan, and assuming 15 STR and 4 SPD, we can look to see whether a STR or SPD increase is more beneficial.

Increasing SPD by 2.25 = unmitigated damage increase of 8*15 = 120, while increasing STR by 2.25 = unmitigated damage increase of 8*4*2.25 = 72. Thus, we choose to upgrade SPD to 6.25. Next, increasing SPD by 2.75 (to 9) = increase of 8*15 = 120, while increasing STR by 2.75 = increase of 8*5*2.75 = 110, so we still do better off with SPD. Finally, the next SPD increase (by 3.25 to 12.25) will be 120 v. 8*6*3.25 = 156. Thus, this time STR increases are better. Ultimately, we end up with 18 STR (technically we want 18.25) and 9 SPD, which helps explain why people recommend keeping STR = 2*SPD for clinchers.
 

He, he, let's see if I can turn that math into simpler conclusions:

1) There is no "magic number" where SPD starts having diminishing returns for damage, it ALWAYS has diminishing returns.
2) Keeping STR at twice the value of SPD maximizes raw, unmitigated damage (damage dealt if your opponent had 1 DEF and 1 AGL) when using a 4/8/8 or 4/8/8 (clinch) fight plan. This is merely a mathematical observation that helps explain why clinchers tend to keep STR around 2x SPD. It does not consider the effects of style, the need to win rounds by score, or variations in AGG/POW/DEF other than 4/8/8, so it is not a general rule for all fighters.

You are absolutely right, I way overstated my conclusion in #2. If you look at the last line of my earlier post, you'll see my actual conclusion was "Oh, now I see why clinchers tend to keep STR twice as high as SPD." From my calculations, I'm willing to hypothesize that all fighters would benefit from having SPD at least as high as half strength (SPD >= STR/2), but that is an untested hypothesis and it is a lot different from what I actually wrote.

As to 1) I wasn't suggesting that 30 SPD fighters are bad (or that they are good). The point is that all SPD has diminishing returns, so you can't say "no fighter should ever have more than x SPD because after "x" there are diminishing returns." If that statement were true, then x would equal 1. While diminishing returns is a consideration, the maximum SPD that is beneficial for a fighter will depend on style, strategy and your other stats.