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Post by geekyfatkid on May 5, 2013 3:40:09 GMT -5
Ill start by saying me and jim have been going back and forth some in emails before this post and i will try to get everyone cought up on our discussion before i go into my revised thinking and fp
i started out with this for a build
strength 9 kp 0
speed 12 agi 18
chin 9 con 14
5'7
and a fp that looked like this
1) 5B/6/9 (ring)
2) 5/6/9 (ropes)
2) if mystuns > 0 then 4B/8/8 (ropes)
2) 9/4/7
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent > 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 6/6/8 (ropes)
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent < 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 4B/8/8 (ring)
2) if score < -1 then 11/1/8
2) if score < -1 and (mystuns = 0 or endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 39 * (round - 1)) then 11/3/6 (ring)
2) if score > -1 then 5/8/7
2) if score > -1 and mystuns > 0 then 4B/8/8 (ring)
2) if score > -2 and endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 33 * (round - 1) and mystuns = 0 then 4B/9/7 (ropes)
2) if score < -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 9/1/10 (ring)
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 8/3/9 (ring)
2) if score > 0 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 4B/7/9 (ring)
7) if roundswon < round - 3 and endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 43 * (round - 1) and mystuns < 2 then 9/3/8 (ring)
7) if roundswon < round - 3 and endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 35 * (round - 1) and mystuns < 2 then 10/3/7 (ring)
# i can afford one draw and will still win
1) if score < round - 10 and round > 8 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
1) if score < round - 10 and round > 8 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
# i have to do more than 10-9 the rest of the rounds
#he`s exhausted
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 67 then 5/10/5 (ring)
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 58 then 5/9/6 (ring)
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 50 then 4/9/7 (ring)
#keep an eye on score
9) if score = -1 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
9) if score = -1 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
9) if score = 0 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
9) if score = 0 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
9) if (score = -1 or score = 0) and endurance_percent > 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 10/3/7 (feint)
#last round
12) if score = -1 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and endurance_percent > 72 then 9/3/8 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and mystuns > 0 then 8/3/9 (ring)
12) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and score > -2 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if mystuns > 0 and mystuns < 3 and score > -2 and score < 2 then 9/3/8 (ring)
12) if mystuns = 0 and endurance_percent < 75 and score < 2 and score > -2 then 10/3/7 (ring)
#towel before you get hurt
if endurance_percent < 50 and opp = 2 and score < 0 then towel
stop
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Post by geekyfatkid on May 5, 2013 3:43:34 GMT -5
after sending this to jim he helped me understand some flaws in my build and my thinking heres how our conversation has gone so far
Jim Sardonic
May 1 (4 days ago)
to me
Regarding your builds:
Higher Agility means better defense, in a roundabout sort of way. The benefit to that is, you can allocate your ability points a little differently running a high agility fighter (CP, ropist, dancer, so on...)
Generally, I will start a ropist build out at 7 chin, 13 con. The rest is all SPD, STR, and AGL. Generally I like to go with AGL > STR >= SPD. So:
Something like this about where I would being:
STR 14 KP 0
SPD 13 AGL 17
CHN 7 CON 13
CUT 1 BLD vhvy
HGT 5
I realize this doesn't fit what you were working with, but this is a starting point in webl theory. The term that will likely be thrown around the most is "efficiency". Doing the least work for the most result. If you can 'cut corners' at 7 CHN, 13 CON, and your opponent has 9 CHN and 14 CON -- then you have 3 more points allocated in STR, AGL, HGT, or SPD to work off of. What does this mean?
Your use of (counter), (ring), (ropes), (clinch), (inside), or whatever will grant a bigger bonus... and a smaller bonus towards the opponent, due to having a smaller increase if any.
But more importantly?
End. Damage = POW * STR * sqrt(AGG * SPD) / opp(DEF * AGL)
That is the endurance damage calculating formula for Webl. What does it state?
Power and STRENGTH times the square root of (Aggression and SPEED) divided by the opponent's Defense and AGILITY
This means Strength has a huge impact on the amount done. Agility has a huge impact on how much is minimized. Speed has a minimal effect, but it's downfalls are made up for in the scoring algorithm.
So if we pack more STR and more AGL than the opponent, and both fighters go 4b/8/8 -- then yours will both do more damage and take less damage.
This, good sir, is one of the big keys to Webl.
Efficiency.
You can't ignore speed, because the best way to maintain an endurance advantage is by making an opponent "open up" and try to score. If he is going 8/1/11 (outside), what is he not doing? 5/1/14 (outside)
If he has to score, he has to get more aggressive. If he has to get more aggressive, he has to lower his defense. If he lowers his defense, you can do more damage.
And I don't care how many punches he throws -- a knockout wins the fight no matter who the judges took bribes from.
Give this little chat a lookover, hit me up with questions. I've had a few beers tonight, so I'm not entirely sure how legible this all is. You have some good ideas going on, and we can focus on those ideas -- but to truly grow will require understanding the concepts presented in this email (along with some others we will get to in the future).
If you do grasp everything, have no questions, and are down to keep progressing -- let me know that as well... though generally this works best as a back and forth, so where I throw a bunch of info at you, please slow me down where you get confused or have questions. The better you understand, the better you will do.
Thanks!
- Jimbo
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Post by geekyfatkid on May 5, 2013 3:44:41 GMT -5
tony D <geekyfatkid@gmail.com>
May 2 (3 days ago)
to Jim
I think i understand what you are saying let me paraphrase it and you can let me know if i am on the right track
efficiency boils down to trying to win rounds/fights by using as little agg as possible? to put it another way I dont want to use 8/1/11 to win a round when 5/1/14 would have won it. In order to make this possible I cant waste points in my build.
when I run the sim it seems that I become very susceptible to knock downs and in turn knock outs when i get my chin so low. after reading what you wrote above i think I am using the high chin as a crutch and can make up for the lower chin by placing those points into the three main stats agi,str,and to a lesser extent speed. extra agi seems like it can help me be better defensively this can also allow me to use a little less def. the extra str and spd allow me to score easier which allows me to use less agg and raise my def to win rounds. these things combined should make up for the lower chin it seems.
If all goes as planed I will force my opponent into opening up to win a few rounds to catch up on score. when he does this I want to make him pay by bashing him to the body hurting him 2 ways 1 he is using more endurance with the extra agg and secondly my punches will be doing extra damage because he will be forced to lower his def. another thing for me to consider is if i know he is in no shape to knock me down, ie really tired or no strength I can make him pay even more at this point because I have no fear and can become even more aggressive.
I also need to understand that my opponent is also trying to put me into these jams so he can take advantage of me having to open up. Another reason to try and make my fighter as efficient as possible.
After reading this I am starting to think that a counter puncher is at a real disadvantage because they need to throw more points into height then other types and as far as i can see height isnt a very efficiency friendly stat. In my head this was the style i wanted to play but i think i will put them on the back burner for a little while till i learn the game better.
thanks jim this is giving me a lot to think about with regards to my plans. this game is a lot like chess you cant only think about what you need to do in any given situation but also what your opponent is likely to be thinking/doing in any given situation
sorry if i rambled in spots there I get into a habit of stream of conscious when i am writing that i know is annoying to some readers. if its hard to read, makes no sense, or is just plain annoying feel free to tell me and i will make sure i edit my writing into a more reader friendly style.
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Post by Sanford on May 5, 2013 8:55:01 GMT -5
A quick note on your fight plan;
Fights plans are read from the bottom upwards, so there are lines that will never ever kick in:
2) 5/6/9 (ropes)
2) if mystuns > 0 then 4B/8/8 (ropes)
2) 9/4/7
In lines below, you may have wanted to use a <= or >= for the score conditional.
If the score is -1, it will not be read. You did this in a couple of places in your fp.
2) if score < -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 9/1/10 (ring)
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 8/3/9 (ring)
There may be more, but this is what I get from quickly scanning it.
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Post by geekyfatkid on May 5, 2013 17:22:05 GMT -5
I would like to now go through my thinking while i set up a modified version of this plan, and for getting ready for my first fight.
I first tried to scout my opponent, Locky23 `Reborn` 2013 (0-0-0 0/0) from the <Lords of the Ring> Lockside: Thunder Hawk gym, but got almost no where. First I tried to look at his retired fighters but he fought almost entirely in bk and unsanctioned. i dont have enough understanding to know for sure but I am guessing the types of fighters you would use in these formats differ from what you would use in the regular regions. otherwise why even have them as an option. i also tried to use the fighter creator to reproduce his fighter but i also found this unhelpful, there were so many ways he could be built.
so truth be told my scouting wasnt very helpful this time but figure its still a good habit to get into so not a total waste
as for the fp I havent changed a bunch fixed a few mistakes (thanks sanford) and added a few more lines. I would like to go through it piece by piece and talk a little about my thinking. If you all would be so kind as to let me know where my thinking is weak or out right wrong i believe it will help my tremendously. i figure if i can get my head around the thinking behind a fp it will basically write itself.
in the first round I want to start playing the endurance game but also give myself a decent chance to win the round. As a rule if my fp is working as i want it to I am dictating action and forcing my opponent to get out of his comfort zone. at the same time I am also trying to account for when this isnt happening and i need to react to what he is doing to me.
1) 5b/6/9 (ring)
basically want to stay semi aggressive if nothing else in the fp kicks in switched to ropes and no targeting
to give myself a little better chance to win rounds
this is also what i want to fall back to whenever the score is -1 aggressive enough to win rounds but wont get me into trouble is my reasoning
2) 5/6/9 (ropes)
next put in a conditional in case i am getting stunned. my thinking is if he is stunning me then he is probably using endurance unfriendly lines to accomplish this so i want to get as endurance perfect as possible. I figure i can take advantage of this later on in the fight so loosing these rounds isnt devastating as long as i make him pay for it
2) if mystuns > 0 then 4B/8/8 (ropes)
next i start making sure score is staying close and also keeping an eye on endurance damage
if fight is even or i am winning and i am not taking a ton of endurance damage then i can open up a little more
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent > 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 6/6/8 (ropes)
if fight is even or i am winning but i am loosing a little more endurance then i would like get back to fighting in a more endurance friendly way
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent < 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 4B/8/8 (ring)
i am loosing the fight by atleast 2 rounds i want to open up to keep the score close
2) if score < -1 then 11/1/8
same thinking as before want to keep it close but he seems to be slapping me so i can open up a little more
2) if score < -1 and (mystuns = 0 or endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 39 * (round - 1)) then 11/3/6 (ring)
i am even or winning the fight but he has stunned me i want to go back to fighting the endurance game and make him pay for opening up
2) if score > -1 and mystuns > 0 then 4B/8/8 (ring)
i am losing the fight by at least 2 rounds and he is doing at least decent amount of damage try to catch back up but also get more defensive
2) if score < -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 9/1/10 (ring)
fights tied or im winning but he is doing at least a decent amount of damage get better endurance wise and up def a little
2) if score > -1 and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - 42 * (round - 1) then 4B/7/9 (ring)
next i trow in some conditionals in case my opponent is tired and i am still at least somewhat competitive in the fight. i would like to get knock downs or ko's with these. i lower the agg as my own end goes down
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 67 then 5H/10/5 (ring)
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 58 then 5H/9/6 (ring)
1) if opp = 0 and score > -3 and endurance_percent > 50 then 4h/9/7 (ring)
this ends the early part of my fp. for the sake of not making this post any more asininely long ill stophere for now and add the middle and late parts in another post
thanks for taking a look and any criticism is much appriciated
GeekyFatKid
Tony
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Post by geekyfatkid on May 5, 2013 20:13:44 GMT -5
heres the rest of my fp so far
i pretty much want to stick with the above until i get to the 10th round but i figured i needed a few checks between 2 and 10
i am getting close to having to win the rest of the rounds so i better get active
7) if score < round - 10 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
7) if score < round - 10 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
if I am taking a beating and can afford to loose a round ill take a rest and hope to get myself back into a more favorable endurance state
7) if score > -1 and (roundswon > score - 2) and endurance_percent * 10 < 1000 - (50 * (round - 1)) then 1/1/8 (outside)
i have the fight won now i just want to survive and win the fight
1) if (score > 14 - round or score >= 8) and opponent > 1 then 1/1/18 (outside)
once round 10 rolls around if i am not winning the fight i need to score if possible
10) if score = -1 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
10) if score = -1 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
10) if score = 0 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
10) if score = 0 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
same as above but i am fighting more of a slapper type fighter so i need to open up a little more and i am less scared of a ko
10) if (score = -1 or score = 0) and endurance_percent > 100 - 4 * (round - 1) then 11/3/6 (feint)
last round so i want to make sure i am on top of the score
12) if score = -1 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and mystuns = 0 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and mystuns > 0 then 8/3/9 (ring)
12) if score = 0 and endurance_percent > 72 and mystuns > 0 then 9/3/8 (ring)
the score is somewhat in doubt i dont want to take any chances so i am going to stay aggressive but not so aggressive i leave myself overly vulnerable to a ko
12) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and score > -2 then 10/3/7 (ring)
12) if mystuns > 0 and mystuns < 3 and score > -2 and score < 2 then 9/3/8 (ring)
12) if mystuns = 0 and endurance_percent < 75 and score < 2 and score > -2 then 10/3/7 (ring)
finally if i have him cut up i want to take advatage of it
3) if hiscuts > round + 1 then 7C/6/7 (ropes)
3) if hiscuts > round - 1 and endurance_percent * 10 > 1000 - 39 * (round - 1) then 6C/7/7 (ropes)
and last thing is if all has gone bad and i need to towel so i can save my fighter for another day
1) if endurance_percent < 50 and opp = 2 and score < 0 then towel
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Post by JimSardonic on May 5, 2013 22:07:28 GMT -5
A quick question:
If 9 defense gets you stunned, why drop it to 8? I realize you're looking for efficiency... perhaps 4B/7/9 is a better idea if you're taking stuns? I generally start most of my ropist plans at 4B/7/9 (ropes) given that I use such low chin.
Also, (ring) will wear you down. (ropes) is where you want to be. (ropes) will put a hurting on anyone who has a sizeable chunk less AGL than you -- which is most builds. (ring) is good for defense. For example
"if the match is won and I just want to make sure I don't get flashed, then 3H/6/11 (ring)"
Otherwise, you want to be balls deep in 4B/7/9 (ropes), 4B/8/8 (ropes), 5B/7/8 (ropes), 5B/8/7 (ropes), and so on...
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ac
Posts: 22
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Post by ac on May 6, 2013 3:27:49 GMT -5
AGILE SLUGGER
STR = AGL
SPD is about 0,75*AGL
CHN is about 9-11.
CND is 13-14 at 0(0) and 16(17) at 28(28)
KP = 0
CR = 1
very heavy build.
Competitive subspecies:
Semi-Balanced (a hybrid between Agile Slugger and Balanced)
STR = AGL
SPD is about 0,85*AGL
CHN is about 10-11.
CND is 13-14 at 0(0) and 16(17) at 28(28)
KP = 0
CR = 1
very heavy build.
Agile slugger is a hybrid of Ropist and Slugger. So, against shorter opponents he fights like ropist, against taller opponents he fights like slugger, but using inside more often, because his agility protects him from both endurance and stun damage. Against a Slugger ring may be more efficient than ropes is some cases (low status, opponent's AGL < 12, for example). Some body allouts vs KP Dancer may also be needed. In the endgame he may use both stun attempts and jabs, depending on his opponent.
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Post by JimSardonic on May 6, 2013 9:57:47 GMT -5
Bear with me Geeky, I have a hard time looking through a long fp all at once, so I kinda take it in pieces.
Bear in mind the above suggestion about being a ROPIST meaning it is an endurance fighter. There is no point in the FP before round nine or so where slapping is a viable option... you should be working on wearing down the opponent.
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Post by JimSardonic on May 6, 2013 15:40:03 GMT -5
Anyone else have some thoughts or ideas for geeky? I've been kinda holding out for someone else's ideas before diving back in. I have a few thoughts and ideas, but I'd like to see someone else's opinion too.
Who can weigh in for Geeky?
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SIN
Welcoming Crew
Admin
Posts: 458 
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Post by SIN on May 6, 2013 21:17:20 GMT -5
I haven't got in depth on this but just by glancing at the early part of your fightplan I see some things I like and a few I dislike.
First off Geeky you must decide whether or not you want to try and win an endurance battle or win by decision. You are doing some things that will keep the fight close but in doing you are ignoring the endurance battle. You cant fight half the fight at 4B/8/8 and half the fight at 10/1/9. Accept the fact that weaker opponents are going to outscore you and stronger opponents are going to damage you. Decide what you want to do and use lines that slowly and progressively up your aggression without sacrificing too much power.
if score >=0 then 4B/8/8
if score < 0 then 5B/7/8
if score < -1 then 6/6/8
small increases are better than large ones and are less noticable to average managers when scouting you.
I love that you are using both endurance conditionals and score conditionals in your fightplan. I hope to post some endurance conditional and combos on the fightplan thread soon. When you learn to combine both score and endurance conditionals in a fightplan you will see that you will be able to hang with both stronger and weaker opponents on the same fightplan. It is a complex and time consuming process however and the more complicated your fightplan, the easier it is to make a mistake. Until then I'd suggest focus on what you want to do to your opponent. Wear him out or win by decision.
I have forgotten many of the conditionals I used to use myself with the server crash and am having to work them out again on the sim. Unfortunately I'm not a math genius so I have to work them out manually. As I progress I'll add some of these to the fightplan thread. Bear with me and keep up the good work.
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Post by geekyfatkid on May 7, 2013 14:46:53 GMT -5
I am an idiot ive been retooling this plan all week then i forget to change the fp for the fighter lol. oh well theres plenty of fights to come and i didnt do horribly but i would have liked to see the new plan
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ac
Posts: 22
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Post by ac on May 7, 2013 16:49:10 GMT -5
You were right there in the late rounds with Locky..Thats when a great gyms going to steal a fight or two but you will get there
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Post by ghosts on May 22, 2013 18:02:01 GMT -5
I think the biggest thing you want to ensure is you don't get caught in no mans land with your build. It's neither a ropist nor is it a dancer - Whats the end goal? If you don't have a clear understand of the build then there is no way in hell you can write successful fight plans.
That has been the biggest eye opener for me since returning.. I'm not running KP Dancers (Well I have 1) I was looking to run agility bias fighters however with the way I created them there weern't dancers nor were they ropists. Then I was sending them out with plans that suited a ropist and scratching my head as to why I sucked so much. Because at the end of the day there is a massive difference between how a dancer and ropist should fight.
Just looking at the fight plan quickly there is no way in the world you want to be opening up to lines like 11/3/6, 9/4/7 etc etc etc so early in the fights. That is a sure fighter way to burn through your endurance.. That should of aggression should be saved for later in the fight. (Even against sissies you shouldn't need that sort of aggression so early)
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