Post by Termit on Jun 4, 2013 9:06:26 GMT -5
Posted some time ago by AoP on WeBL Forum:
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:24 PM
People frequently write to me asking me about fighter builds, what builds I like best and how I build them.
Well, in this thread I will reveal my secrets. These secrets aren't really all that secret because all the top managers who have fought me know how I build my fighters. But for the newer or up and coming managers, here is a primer on how I build them.
Favorite Builds
Counter Puncher
Balanced
Dancer
KP Dancer
Clincher
Counter Puncher
I like build most of my counter punchers basically the same way. I always use VL build. This makes them taller in their division. The basic proportions are as follows:
STR = .7*AGL SPD = AGL +1 or +2
I generally start with 14 CND and by 28/28 that naturally progresses to about 17 CND.
I like big chins, as most managers know, so I start CP fighters with 10 chin and generally get them to 12 by 28/28.
This is a very versatile build and it can hold its own against most fighters. Toughest builds against this build are low chin sluggers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:36 PM
Balanced
I used to build my balanced fighters with an agility bias, but I moved away from that and moved toward a slight STR bias. I like to build them at all body builds. I have some VH, some normal and some VL.
Generally they are proportioned almost straight up with a STR bias of +1 or +2.
STR = AGL +2
AGL = SPD
Chins again start at 10 and move to 11 or 12 by 28/28. Same CND as above. I almost always start at 14 with the aim of ending at 17.
The toughest fighters for this fighter type are ropists and agile sluggers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:51 PM
KP Dancer
Most people like to build kp dancers with VH build, but I prefer VL build. I like them to look a little bit like my CP fighter proportions, only with KP.
STR = .7*AGL
KP = MAX
SPD = AGL
Again, chin and conditioning the same as above.
Sometimes, in the upper divisions I'll use a slight speed bias so they can flash using counter.
In heavies, I like to use a huge speed bias over agility, often +5 to +7 and a little less STR than in lower divisions. I almost always use VL build.
I won't build a heavy kp dancer with less than 12/4 (STR/KP).
I usually start heavies with 11 chin and move to 13 chin by 28. CND is the same as above.
KP dancers hate clinchers and sluggers.
I'm experimenting with a VH heavy with no kp and big agility. We'll see how that goes.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:57 PM
Clinchers
I had some very successful clinchers, but I retired them all because the strengthening of ropes made them obsolete. This build is now far too easy to obliterate with ropists and agile sluggers. Use VH build.
STR = AGL*1.5
STP = AGL
Same chin and CND as above.
If you want to fight a good clinching fighter in today's environment, I would probably suggest an agile slugger. The ropists don't have such a big advantage because of the AGL slugger's superior AGL.
For an Agile slugger you might want to try:
STR = AGL
SPD = .8*AGL
I don't build these fighters myself because I like speed, however I have fought against them and they are real ip dealers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:01 PM
Dancer
I build my dancers pretty much like my CP fighters except I used VH build and an AGL bias instead of a SPD bias:
STR = .7*AGL
AGL = SPD +2
Same chins and CND as above.
These fighters are surprisingly efficient and do well with all fighter types. The biggest threat comes again from low chin clinchers and agile sluggers although these fighters handle the agile sluggers a little better than the CP fighters because of the extra AGL.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:02 PM
Any questions feel free to ask.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:53 PM
What is your favourite film?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:09 PM
LOL, questions about fighter builds.
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Posted by: Uncle Phaulty`s Wiener Farm (SoS)
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:11 PM
Would you have KP ever on your cper's if no why if yes why. And how would you handle it.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:36 PM
Well, yes. As I've noted above, my KP dancers are really built like CP fighters with KP. They work best at weights at middleweight and above.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:50 PM
OK actually I got a good question, well more of a task
Here is a fighter build, I want you to say how you would build one or two fighters to take it apart describing how and why
STR 23, SPD 22, AGL 27, CND 18, CHN 9, HGT 0, CUT 1
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:09 PM
That fighter only has enough APs to be at about 21/21. That is similar to an agile balanced build I used to build except the AGL bias is a bit more than mine. It is almost a hybrid between an agile balanced and a ropist.
My dancer build would handle that build fairly easily. You have too many CND points for this status level, which robs you of style bonus points. The following dancer build would go through the early rounds counter punching and winning rounds with only about a .6%- 1.0% endurance deficit per round. When you try to catch up, the dancer picks up .5% endurance per round. So basically it is close to a wash going into the endgame and the dancer pretty easily feints his way to the finish.
19 0
25 27
10 16
low
5'2"
VH
Your agility gives you no bonus so you are down to inside or clinch. 5b/7/8 or 6b/6/8 (counter) should beat 5b/7/8 (clinch) or (inside) on points and stay close on endurance. If my guy gets ahead, I throw in a resting round while you are opening up and gain back a lot of endurance. If I'm not too tired, and I'm ahead, I throw in a body bashing round between round 8 and 10 while you are trying to score and then we go down the stretch close on endurance and with me having a big speed and height advantage.
Sim it and see how it plays.
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Posted by: <The Forsaken> Archangel
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:20 PM
I have a question for you AoP. How come you have never ventured into the specialty regions? You seem to know your builds to perfection in the regular region. Why not try your hand at BK, Amateur, or Graduated? The builds and strategies are different, and it appears that you could use a chalange.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:21 PM
The following kp balanced fighter would have fun with your guy.
18 6
23 20
15 15
5'2"
VL
5h/10!/5 (allout) beats just about anything you can throw unless you train chin up to 10. But then I could also train chin up to 16 and get the same result.
And the kp guy can go 6/1/13 (outside) all day until you win a round or until an endurance sensor senses that you are throwing to the body and then unleash the fury.
You would have a really tough time beating that kp fighter. You would basically have to play it perfectly and be lucky at guessing the flash round.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:07 PM
How come you have never ventured into the specialty regions?
Just a matter of time. I can only run about a dozen fighters. I prefer to concentrate them on the bigs.
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:25 PM
CON pwns. Seriously. I start most of my guys with 15-16.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:45 PM
I got a question...
U already have more titles than anybody....
your motivation to fight isn't what it used to be.....
so let's quit the appetizers and get to the steak shall we....
So how about handing over those fight plans of yours?:-)
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Posted by: The Plastic Empire -Dechristianize-
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 12:41 AM
most of my kp dancers win at lower weight divisions. my sluggers tend to win the higher ones.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 6:23 AM
For Counterpunchers, is height necessary? As height basically splits that AP between speed and agility, couldn't you just use those height APS in a more favorable split between the two with a speed bias?
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 6:41 AM
Thanks AoP, I think I will play with that scenario. And yeah the guy has 100 APs, I just chose a round number and didn't specifically go for 28/28, so whatever status that comes to...
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:07 AM
Bremen,
I've found that too much CND hurts at the higher levels. If you have 2 extra CND, it means that you have 2 less APs somewhere else. It robs you of bonus APs for style. There are no styles that give bonus for conditioning. Part of that may be that I like to run high chin (which also gives no bonus for style). So, perhaps if you run low chin and high conditioning, that would be good for efficiency. But then you become a happy meal for the kp guys.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:20 AM
U already have more titles than anybody....
No I don't. Prod has more than I do. He has his gym + Bobblehead
your motivation to fight isn't what it used to be.....
Actually, I still love the competition just as much, and I still need a lot of WTs before I pass Prod's combined total. So, I'm still plenty motivated.
So how about handing over those fight plans of yours?
I keep telling you guys, there is nothing to hand over. I don't do premades. Each fp is custom built for the match. I don't do like a lot of guys and have score and endurance combinations with stun and cut conditionals mixed in to anticipate every possiblity.
I scout the fighter carefully, figure out his build, look at the way he has fought fighters with my build in the past and write a fp that exploits I disagreeets and his tendencies and weaknesses. Most of my fps run about 30 to 40 lines. Of those, about 15 are standard lines that seldom change (towel lines, resting lines, flash if opponent weak lines, run if way ahead lines, etc.) So basically, I'm writing fps that are maybe 20-25 lines every fight. Remember, only 12 lines can fire per fight. You really don't need 100.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:22 AM
On certain freaky builds, where the opponent has limited options, I will write fps of 10 lines or less.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:35 AM
For Counterpunchers, is height necessary? As height basically splits that AP between speed and agility, couldn't you just use those height APS in a more favorable split between the two with a speed bias?
Yes, height is really necessary. If you go VH and take the two height APs and distribute them to spd, your counter bonus remains the same, but you are fighting with one less agility from height. Since agility matters more in the damage formula than speed, you will have a net loss in efficiency. This will be particularly exaggerated against very strong fighters.
Also, speed reaches a point of diminishing return as you approach 30, so you will be picking up less in the way of scoring capability than you will be losing in efficiency.
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Posted by: Kewari & The Masters Of The Universe :-WTA-:
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:39 AM
Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood] Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:53 PM | Moderate This Post
What is your favourite film?
Thats the funniest thing ive read in webl for a long time, nice 1 IGDF.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:41 AM
most of my kp dancers win at lower weight divisions. my sluggers tend to win the higher ones
That is going to depend on the region and who is fighting there. In contenders, where the fighters are far better built and the managers are more skilled, the reverse is true. Every region has its own quirky conditions based on the managers who fight there. If, for instance, a lot of managers are building tall kp sissies in the upper divisions, your sluggers will do better there. But you don't find a lot of kp sissies in LH and Cruiser in contenders. Mostly you find balanced fighters with good chins and guys with hefty kp. Your sluggers would have a tougher time against those fighters.
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Posted by: Los Vacos (BPBL)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:57 AM
So would that mean that "Tumbleweed" is a balanced or a dancer?
Just curious...
;o)
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:02 AM
I'm a real flickjunkie. I watch hundreds of films per year. It is difficult to pick one.
Here are some favorites not necessarily in order:
The Godfather
Shane
On the Waterfront
The Maltese Falcon
Double Indemnity
Rear Window
Rocky (the original)
12 Angry Men
Raging Bull
High Noon
Braveheart
Gladiator
Patton
Spartacus
Das Boot
As you can see, I like drama, war and violence. I enjoy a fluffy romantic comedy like Sleepless in Seattle every now and then, but they don't make it into my all time favorites.
Now, back to WeBL.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:05 AM
So would that mean that "Tumbleweed" is a balanced or a dancer?
Since you are fighting him this week, I'll let you figure it out. But based on how he fights, it is pretty obvious, especially given the fact that you fought him last week with a different fighter.
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Posted by: Los Vacos (BPBL)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:39 AM
d**n, I thought you wouldn't notice...
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Posted by: The Ivan Kafka Gym (The Brotherhood)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:49 AM
I get on okay with every build except ropists. I just can't get to grips using them. I see that isn't one of your favourites either AOP, but is there any chance you can chuck out a decent ropist build so I can run one for a change. Cheers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 11:22 AM
I'm not an expert on ropists, but here is a build I typically see when I'm scouting others:
22 0
22 31
10 17
VH
5'6"
Low
So, basically it looks like
SPD = STR
STR = .7*AGL
I'd start with chin of 8 or 9 depending on how much kp you have in your region and 14 cnd.
Someone like Gnu or Bad Bit, who have been winning WTs with ropists could probably give you better insight than I can.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 11:23 AM
Ropist will almost always use VH build. That's what gives them their AGL.
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Posted by: ~Coal City Misfits~ - NE Swarm - [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 3:30 PM
i run alot of strong bal type fighters bal and sluggers and i get beat up every time i face a tall opp with kp also cper's usually hand me a pretty decent Beatdown how could i make them a lil bit more weary of me lol...
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 5:07 PM
Coal City
Sounds to me like you are either trying to go inside on them or you don't have enough chin for the kp guys. For both those questions, I suspect you need to learn to use clinch better.
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Posted by: ~Coal City Misfits~ - NE Swarm - [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 5:09 PM
well do
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Posted by: [BHO] Baltimores Hardest Out
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:38 PM
I've been reading and reading alot of the free material that you expert vet. gyms have placed for us new gym managers and I'm starting to come to grips with most of it. This is my second time back with a new gym and I see myself making this Gym a very successful one with my newly found dedication. AOP, I'm in favor of the builds you use aswell, particularly both (KP)Counter Puncher and Reg. Counter Puncher with balanced fighters. I am confused on the term 28/28 though, can you explain to me what that is so I can fully understand your post about Counter Punchers?
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:43 PM
AOP) It depends on what you are trying to do, I suppose. Let's see how my guys do in a few months, and then we can talk more.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:45 PM
28/28 means "at rating and status 28", basically the highest point any fighter can achieve in the game
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Posted by: [BHO] Baltimores Hardest Out
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:48 PM
Thanks.
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Posted by: Husaria (Polski Klan)
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:46 AM
ok now post your favoritue fp`s
-mrow
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Posted by: Medicus Funk est Nusquam
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:46 AM
What type of builds do you tend/enjoy to run in heavies? WeBL's not as fun when you're a one-trick pony
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 4:37 AM
Are VH and VL the main builds most people use nowadays?
And what sort of fighter is one that has high speed but isn't necessarily tall? Could these potentially be a danger to counter punchers as well, as they lose a lot of the Counter style ability, possibly to the extent of it being harmful, as well as their feint advantage?
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:14 AM
Okay since you're giving out fighter build help here... what would a typical AoP 28(28) KP Dancer or Agile Slugger look like?
I recieved one of your lower weight KP Dancer fighter builds awhile back as a gift. I have had alot of regional success with that fighter build but tend to struggle at higher rated Contenders. I know it's not the fighter build as much as it is the fight plan being used in the fight. But, just to make sure that I am heading in the right direction, it would be nice to know what that fighters AP's should be at 28(28).
Estimating using your gift fighters starting AP's, this is what I was aiming for at 28(28).
20 0
27 30
12 18
5'2" cut= low bld= VH Weight= 113
So how far am I off?
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:36 AM
Small Gym,
AoP mentioned above his stats for a KP Dancer:
STR = .7*AGL
AGL = SPD
CND starts at 14, ends at 17
CHN starts at 10 ends at 11 or 12
Build = VL
I assume Low Cuts
That would give you something like this at 28(28) if he is 5'2", like your guy is:
18 6
27 27
12 17
Or this, I guess:
19 6
26 27
12 17
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:50 AM
He also suggested these ratios for an Agile Slugger:
STR = AGL
SPD = .8*AGL
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:12 AM
And what sort of fighter is one that has high speed but isn't necessarily tall? Could these potentially be a danger to counter punchers as well, as they lose a lot of the Counter style ability, possibly to the extent of it being harmful, as well as their feint advantage?
A fighter like that would probably be a VH balanced with a big SPD bias. There really isn't a name for that fighter.
The trouble with that build is that you have to give up AGL and STR to get the SPD and then all you have is feint or inside/clinch to get bonuses. One of my CP builds would be equal in speed, maybe 3 inches taller and greater in agility. He might actually be able to use ropes and win on efficiency while scoring better.
I've seen VH speed demons from time to time, but they take a lot of ips against the sluggers and ropists due to the STR and AGL that they sacrifice to get the speed. So, despite the fact that they might be okay against CP fighters, they still have a whole lot of other builds that could give them big trouble.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:15 AM
What type of builds do you tend/enjoy to run in heavies?
I covered this above, but I'll repeat it.
In heavies, I like to use a huge speed bias over agility, often +5 to +7 and a little less STR than in lower divisions. I almost always use VL build.
I won't build a heavyweight kp dancer with less than 12/4 (STR/KP) by 28/28.
I usually start heavies with 11 chin and move to 13 chin by 28. CND is the same as above
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:18 AM
AOP, I think he was talking about a speedy but short CP. Basically STR = AGI = .75SPD or something of that nature. So they would be using counter to get some agi, while also dealing out damage and winning on points.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:51 PM
That is the oldschool CP which was never very viable. Even if you build them VL, they still have the same problems I mentioned with ropists and sluggers. They steal APs from STR and AGL to get SPD and they get no extra AGL from height because they are shorter. They just suck up ips from sluggers and ropists and their speed doesn't do them much good at the end because they are so tired.
They also cut more because their AGL is low. This kind of fighter going 5/7/8 (counter) against a typical ropist at 5/7/8 (ropes) would draw the round, lose about 1+% on efficiency and have a 17-20% chance of cuts vs the ropist's 10%.
It just isn't such a great build.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 4:39 PM
AOP...
How good do you have to be in math to understand the percentages and formulas and to write fight plans?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 7:26 PM
Axis,
I have no idea how to answer that. Lots of managers are and have been extremely successful at this game and have little idea what is in the formulas. They play by feel. Many people say Prod played like that.
I started with a very mathematical approach, but now I mostly understand the mathematical implications and can play by feel with mathematical underpinnings.
If you are not a math guy but you want a tool that will help you understand the comparative efficiency implications of various tactics against various opponents, I recommend you download Albino's calculator, which is still available on his website.
Albino's Page
I still use this tool quite often to find the most efficient lines against probable tactics used by the opponent. It isn't something you need to use for every round; the sim is better for that. But if you are trying to decide whether to open with 4b/8/8 or 5b/7/8, it will tell you which one is likely to win the round and what the damage would be. Also, you can put in theoretical round situations like, "Would I stun him if I were at 75% and he was at 66% and I threw 5h/11/4 (inside) and he threw 10/3/7 (ring). That would be useful to know because you could then write a conditional that said:
if opponent < strong and endurance_percent > 75 and round >= 10 then 5h/11/4 (inside)
to flash if he is in the habit of going 10/3/7 after the 10th round.
Basically, this tool does the math for you. It won't write the fp for you, but it is useful to help you decide about what is the best tactic for certain situations that might arise.
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 1:14 AM
Sympathy,
I know I said KP Dancer but was really referring to his gift fighter that he sent me awhile back.
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 1:15 AM
AoP,
Any answer to my post above would be appreciated.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 8:01 AM
Okay since you're giving out fighter build help here... what would a typical AoP 28(28) KP Dancer or Agile Slugger look like?
What weight division?
Estimating using your gift fighters starting AP's, this is what I was aiming for at 28(28).
20 0
27 30
12 18
5'2" cut= low bld= VH Weight= 113
So how far am I off?
Not bad. I might switch one CND into SPD or STR, but otherwise that's a good build.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 11:15 AM
What would you say the lowest chin a fighter could possibly have without being totally demolished nowadays be?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 10:21 PM
Atlantis,
That depends on the types of fighters in the region where he fights. If there is a lot of big kp around, I'd say 10 and 11 to 12 in contenders. If there are mostly non kp fighters, you can get away with 8-9 in regionals and 9 in contenders with a ropist.
I wouldn't recommend below 8. It is just too easy to get hurt below 8, even in regionals.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Saturday September 15, 2007 - 12:02 AM
Ok thanks. I was considering creating a 6 chin fighter just to see how well he would do, but if its inadvisable then I probably won't.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Sunday September 16, 2007 - 11:27 PM
AOP, since we're playing "Let's quiz AOP", I have 3 for ya....
1) If you could create a bhop middleweight, what would his stats be at status 1/1 and what would his stats be at 28/28?
2) With the sim being a bit biased towards agility, do u think there is any hope for sluggers or clinchers?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 7:53 AM
1) What is a bhop middleweight? The only bhop I know is Brooklyn House of Pain.
2) Hope is based on whom you fight and how you fight them. There is always hope. The clinchers, if they are true clinchers (STR>= 1.5*AGL) will have almost and impossible time against the ropists and agile sluggers. Sluggers have a better chance, especially if they don't stray too far from balanced.
3) I didn't see a third question. You said you had three.
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 8:50 AM
AoP,
A bhop middleweight is Bernard Hopkins.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 1:17 PM
Thanks Sympathy i should of used the full name.
3rd question is about counter and ropes....
some people seem to think that with the changes that they were improved too much....me being one of them...wouldn't it be ok to see if they were toned down just a bit?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 1:58 PM
Answer to question 3. I don't agree. Counter and ropes are right where they need to be. Both were completely dead styles before the change. Now they are vibrant, useful styles. They win against some fighter types and lose against others. I don't think they need to be changed at all.
This isn't really a Q&A question. This is a sim design question that has been brought up and refuted in sim design a number of times since the change by people who like to run high STR sluggers. These fighter types used to totally dominate WeBL until this change and now they are difficult to win with. This was a positive change IMO because fights were just boring body bashing with the first guy cut usually losing. Now there are numerous tactical alternatives that make fights and fighters more varied and interesting.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 2:43 PM
Okay, do you want your Hopkins fighter with or without KP. Personally, I think he is not really a KP fighter. He had a lot of early KO's early in his career against journeymen, but later it was mostly decisions or later round TKOs.
So, I'm thinking a tall VL CP fighter with great speed, reasonably good AGL and not overwhelming STR but enough to not be dominated.
With that in mind here is how I would build him at 28/28. Basically, an AOP counter puncher with a stronger speed bias.
17 0
27 24
11 17
VL
6'1"
low
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Posted by: Great Gnu`s Garage (WILBOO Inc.)[BTP]
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 3:18 PM
Art,
Ropists I feel should start with 8 chin and 12 cnd. It has been the most effective starting point in my opinion for the ropists.
I would have one or two more aglity at 28, but not a bad version. I have played around with spd and str both being .66 of AGL all the way to .5 of AGL. Both have won WT's but the latter can have some trouble hurting opponents enough.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 5:14 PM
hmmmm....what would you starting stats be at status 1?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 7:57 PM
Starting at status 0:
9 0
13 11
9 14
6'1"
VL
low
Train agility first. Then STR, AGL, SPD, etc. He will have to move up to S-middle for a while, but later he will straddle the two weights and be able to fight either up or down.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Wednesday September 19, 2007 - 6:05 AM
Just wondering, but do you remember your longest winning streak with one fighter without a loss beforehand (#-0-0) ever, and what fighter build you managed it with?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Sunday September 23, 2007 - 1:46 PM
I had one counter puncher win a WT at 19-0-3. (Eamon "Whistler" McNulty)
I had another counter puncher go 19-0-1 and lost in the WT fight. (Ernie "The Enforcer" Gallo)
I had a dancer go 18-0 and lost in the WT fight. (Abe "The Rabbi" Schoenbaum)
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Posted by: Bangladesh. -UV-
Date: Monday September 24, 2007 - 1:40 AM
Art - can you teach me how to use KP?
: )
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 24, 2007 - 6:47 AM
Bangla,
You seem to be doing just fine with kp.
;-)
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Posted by: Stark Slugger Society
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 12:34 AM
I fail to perform consistantly good with anything but KP...
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Posted by: Sardonic`s Gym <UV>
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 2:39 AM
Stark, give me a holler. I'm not stranger, and I'd be glad to lend to you what I know. Bang and I share a clan, and I'm sure he would be glad to tell you the ways I've helped him understand endurance. Likewise, I'd be glad to tell you what he's taught me of KP.
My email is on my gym page... don't _ever_ hesitate to contact me. I am sure the same goes for Bang.
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Posted by: Stark Slugger Society
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 5:10 AM
I will probably do that. BTW, Jim, I'm sure with all the nonsence last week with deleting posts and whatnot you might have forgotten, I never got the e-mail about what we were talking about with the Welcoming letters and stuff. I am still interested in talking about that and seeing if we can't improve gym retention. Anyway drop me a line when you get time. I don't like to bother mods unless it's absolutely needed and then I try to reach them through here! Anyway talk to you later
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:24 PM
People frequently write to me asking me about fighter builds, what builds I like best and how I build them.
Well, in this thread I will reveal my secrets. These secrets aren't really all that secret because all the top managers who have fought me know how I build my fighters. But for the newer or up and coming managers, here is a primer on how I build them.
Favorite Builds
Counter Puncher
Balanced
Dancer
KP Dancer
Clincher
Counter Puncher
I like build most of my counter punchers basically the same way. I always use VL build. This makes them taller in their division. The basic proportions are as follows:
STR = .7*AGL SPD = AGL +1 or +2
I generally start with 14 CND and by 28/28 that naturally progresses to about 17 CND.
I like big chins, as most managers know, so I start CP fighters with 10 chin and generally get them to 12 by 28/28.
This is a very versatile build and it can hold its own against most fighters. Toughest builds against this build are low chin sluggers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:36 PM
Balanced
I used to build my balanced fighters with an agility bias, but I moved away from that and moved toward a slight STR bias. I like to build them at all body builds. I have some VH, some normal and some VL.
Generally they are proportioned almost straight up with a STR bias of +1 or +2.
STR = AGL +2
AGL = SPD
Chins again start at 10 and move to 11 or 12 by 28/28. Same CND as above. I almost always start at 14 with the aim of ending at 17.
The toughest fighters for this fighter type are ropists and agile sluggers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:51 PM
KP Dancer
Most people like to build kp dancers with VH build, but I prefer VL build. I like them to look a little bit like my CP fighter proportions, only with KP.
STR = .7*AGL
KP = MAX
SPD = AGL
Again, chin and conditioning the same as above.
Sometimes, in the upper divisions I'll use a slight speed bias so they can flash using counter.
In heavies, I like to use a huge speed bias over agility, often +5 to +7 and a little less STR than in lower divisions. I almost always use VL build.
I won't build a heavy kp dancer with less than 12/4 (STR/KP).
I usually start heavies with 11 chin and move to 13 chin by 28. CND is the same as above.
KP dancers hate clinchers and sluggers.
I'm experimenting with a VH heavy with no kp and big agility. We'll see how that goes.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 5:57 PM
Clinchers
I had some very successful clinchers, but I retired them all because the strengthening of ropes made them obsolete. This build is now far too easy to obliterate with ropists and agile sluggers. Use VH build.
STR = AGL*1.5
STP = AGL
Same chin and CND as above.
If you want to fight a good clinching fighter in today's environment, I would probably suggest an agile slugger. The ropists don't have such a big advantage because of the AGL slugger's superior AGL.
For an Agile slugger you might want to try:
STR = AGL
SPD = .8*AGL
I don't build these fighters myself because I like speed, however I have fought against them and they are real ip dealers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:01 PM
Dancer
I build my dancers pretty much like my CP fighters except I used VH build and an AGL bias instead of a SPD bias:
STR = .7*AGL
AGL = SPD +2
Same chins and CND as above.
These fighters are surprisingly efficient and do well with all fighter types. The biggest threat comes again from low chin clinchers and agile sluggers although these fighters handle the agile sluggers a little better than the CP fighters because of the extra AGL.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:02 PM
Any questions feel free to ask.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:53 PM
What is your favourite film?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:09 PM
LOL, questions about fighter builds.
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Posted by: Uncle Phaulty`s Wiener Farm (SoS)
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:11 PM
Would you have KP ever on your cper's if no why if yes why. And how would you handle it.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:36 PM
Well, yes. As I've noted above, my KP dancers are really built like CP fighters with KP. They work best at weights at middleweight and above.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 7:50 PM
OK actually I got a good question, well more of a task
Here is a fighter build, I want you to say how you would build one or two fighters to take it apart describing how and why
STR 23, SPD 22, AGL 27, CND 18, CHN 9, HGT 0, CUT 1
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:09 PM
That fighter only has enough APs to be at about 21/21. That is similar to an agile balanced build I used to build except the AGL bias is a bit more than mine. It is almost a hybrid between an agile balanced and a ropist.
My dancer build would handle that build fairly easily. You have too many CND points for this status level, which robs you of style bonus points. The following dancer build would go through the early rounds counter punching and winning rounds with only about a .6%- 1.0% endurance deficit per round. When you try to catch up, the dancer picks up .5% endurance per round. So basically it is close to a wash going into the endgame and the dancer pretty easily feints his way to the finish.
19 0
25 27
10 16
low
5'2"
VH
Your agility gives you no bonus so you are down to inside or clinch. 5b/7/8 or 6b/6/8 (counter) should beat 5b/7/8 (clinch) or (inside) on points and stay close on endurance. If my guy gets ahead, I throw in a resting round while you are opening up and gain back a lot of endurance. If I'm not too tired, and I'm ahead, I throw in a body bashing round between round 8 and 10 while you are trying to score and then we go down the stretch close on endurance and with me having a big speed and height advantage.
Sim it and see how it plays.
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Posted by: <The Forsaken> Archangel
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:20 PM
I have a question for you AoP. How come you have never ventured into the specialty regions? You seem to know your builds to perfection in the regular region. Why not try your hand at BK, Amateur, or Graduated? The builds and strategies are different, and it appears that you could use a chalange.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 10:21 PM
The following kp balanced fighter would have fun with your guy.
18 6
23 20
15 15
5'2"
VL
5h/10!/5 (allout) beats just about anything you can throw unless you train chin up to 10. But then I could also train chin up to 16 and get the same result.
And the kp guy can go 6/1/13 (outside) all day until you win a round or until an endurance sensor senses that you are throwing to the body and then unleash the fury.
You would have a really tough time beating that kp fighter. You would basically have to play it perfectly and be lucky at guessing the flash round.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:07 PM
How come you have never ventured into the specialty regions?
Just a matter of time. I can only run about a dozen fighters. I prefer to concentrate them on the bigs.
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:25 PM
CON pwns. Seriously. I start most of my guys with 15-16.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 11:45 PM
I got a question...
U already have more titles than anybody....
your motivation to fight isn't what it used to be.....
so let's quit the appetizers and get to the steak shall we....
So how about handing over those fight plans of yours?:-)
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Posted by: The Plastic Empire -Dechristianize-
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 12:41 AM
most of my kp dancers win at lower weight divisions. my sluggers tend to win the higher ones.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 6:23 AM
For Counterpunchers, is height necessary? As height basically splits that AP between speed and agility, couldn't you just use those height APS in a more favorable split between the two with a speed bias?
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 6:41 AM
Thanks AoP, I think I will play with that scenario. And yeah the guy has 100 APs, I just chose a round number and didn't specifically go for 28/28, so whatever status that comes to...
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:07 AM
Bremen,
I've found that too much CND hurts at the higher levels. If you have 2 extra CND, it means that you have 2 less APs somewhere else. It robs you of bonus APs for style. There are no styles that give bonus for conditioning. Part of that may be that I like to run high chin (which also gives no bonus for style). So, perhaps if you run low chin and high conditioning, that would be good for efficiency. But then you become a happy meal for the kp guys.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:20 AM
U already have more titles than anybody....
No I don't. Prod has more than I do. He has his gym + Bobblehead
your motivation to fight isn't what it used to be.....
Actually, I still love the competition just as much, and I still need a lot of WTs before I pass Prod's combined total. So, I'm still plenty motivated.
So how about handing over those fight plans of yours?
I keep telling you guys, there is nothing to hand over. I don't do premades. Each fp is custom built for the match. I don't do like a lot of guys and have score and endurance combinations with stun and cut conditionals mixed in to anticipate every possiblity.
I scout the fighter carefully, figure out his build, look at the way he has fought fighters with my build in the past and write a fp that exploits I disagreeets and his tendencies and weaknesses. Most of my fps run about 30 to 40 lines. Of those, about 15 are standard lines that seldom change (towel lines, resting lines, flash if opponent weak lines, run if way ahead lines, etc.) So basically, I'm writing fps that are maybe 20-25 lines every fight. Remember, only 12 lines can fire per fight. You really don't need 100.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:22 AM
On certain freaky builds, where the opponent has limited options, I will write fps of 10 lines or less.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:35 AM
For Counterpunchers, is height necessary? As height basically splits that AP between speed and agility, couldn't you just use those height APS in a more favorable split between the two with a speed bias?
Yes, height is really necessary. If you go VH and take the two height APs and distribute them to spd, your counter bonus remains the same, but you are fighting with one less agility from height. Since agility matters more in the damage formula than speed, you will have a net loss in efficiency. This will be particularly exaggerated against very strong fighters.
Also, speed reaches a point of diminishing return as you approach 30, so you will be picking up less in the way of scoring capability than you will be losing in efficiency.
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Posted by: Kewari & The Masters Of The Universe :-WTA-:
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:39 AM
Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood] Date: Tuesday September 11, 2007 - 6:53 PM | Moderate This Post
What is your favourite film?
Thats the funniest thing ive read in webl for a long time, nice 1 IGDF.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:41 AM
most of my kp dancers win at lower weight divisions. my sluggers tend to win the higher ones
That is going to depend on the region and who is fighting there. In contenders, where the fighters are far better built and the managers are more skilled, the reverse is true. Every region has its own quirky conditions based on the managers who fight there. If, for instance, a lot of managers are building tall kp sissies in the upper divisions, your sluggers will do better there. But you don't find a lot of kp sissies in LH and Cruiser in contenders. Mostly you find balanced fighters with good chins and guys with hefty kp. Your sluggers would have a tougher time against those fighters.
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Posted by: Los Vacos (BPBL)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:57 AM
So would that mean that "Tumbleweed" is a balanced or a dancer?
Just curious...
;o)
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:02 AM
I'm a real flickjunkie. I watch hundreds of films per year. It is difficult to pick one.
Here are some favorites not necessarily in order:
The Godfather
Shane
On the Waterfront
The Maltese Falcon
Double Indemnity
Rear Window
Rocky (the original)
12 Angry Men
Raging Bull
High Noon
Braveheart
Gladiator
Patton
Spartacus
Das Boot
As you can see, I like drama, war and violence. I enjoy a fluffy romantic comedy like Sleepless in Seattle every now and then, but they don't make it into my all time favorites.
Now, back to WeBL.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:05 AM
So would that mean that "Tumbleweed" is a balanced or a dancer?
Since you are fighting him this week, I'll let you figure it out. But based on how he fights, it is pretty obvious, especially given the fact that you fought him last week with a different fighter.
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Posted by: Los Vacos (BPBL)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:39 AM
d**n, I thought you wouldn't notice...
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Posted by: The Ivan Kafka Gym (The Brotherhood)
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 8:49 AM
I get on okay with every build except ropists. I just can't get to grips using them. I see that isn't one of your favourites either AOP, but is there any chance you can chuck out a decent ropist build so I can run one for a change. Cheers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 11:22 AM
I'm not an expert on ropists, but here is a build I typically see when I'm scouting others:
22 0
22 31
10 17
VH
5'6"
Low
So, basically it looks like
SPD = STR
STR = .7*AGL
I'd start with chin of 8 or 9 depending on how much kp you have in your region and 14 cnd.
Someone like Gnu or Bad Bit, who have been winning WTs with ropists could probably give you better insight than I can.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 11:23 AM
Ropist will almost always use VH build. That's what gives them their AGL.
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Posted by: ~Coal City Misfits~ - NE Swarm - [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 3:30 PM
i run alot of strong bal type fighters bal and sluggers and i get beat up every time i face a tall opp with kp also cper's usually hand me a pretty decent Beatdown how could i make them a lil bit more weary of me lol...
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 5:07 PM
Coal City
Sounds to me like you are either trying to go inside on them or you don't have enough chin for the kp guys. For both those questions, I suspect you need to learn to use clinch better.
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Posted by: ~Coal City Misfits~ - NE Swarm - [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 5:09 PM
well do
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Posted by: [BHO] Baltimores Hardest Out
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:38 PM
I've been reading and reading alot of the free material that you expert vet. gyms have placed for us new gym managers and I'm starting to come to grips with most of it. This is my second time back with a new gym and I see myself making this Gym a very successful one with my newly found dedication. AOP, I'm in favor of the builds you use aswell, particularly both (KP)Counter Puncher and Reg. Counter Puncher with balanced fighters. I am confused on the term 28/28 though, can you explain to me what that is so I can fully understand your post about Counter Punchers?
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:43 PM
AOP) It depends on what you are trying to do, I suppose. Let's see how my guys do in a few months, and then we can talk more.
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Posted by: IGDF [The Brotherhood]
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:45 PM
28/28 means "at rating and status 28", basically the highest point any fighter can achieve in the game
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Posted by: [BHO] Baltimores Hardest Out
Date: Wednesday September 12, 2007 - 7:48 PM
Thanks.
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Posted by: Husaria (Polski Klan)
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:46 AM
ok now post your favoritue fp`s
-mrow
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Posted by: Medicus Funk est Nusquam
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:46 AM
What type of builds do you tend/enjoy to run in heavies? WeBL's not as fun when you're a one-trick pony
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 4:37 AM
Are VH and VL the main builds most people use nowadays?
And what sort of fighter is one that has high speed but isn't necessarily tall? Could these potentially be a danger to counter punchers as well, as they lose a lot of the Counter style ability, possibly to the extent of it being harmful, as well as their feint advantage?
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:14 AM
Okay since you're giving out fighter build help here... what would a typical AoP 28(28) KP Dancer or Agile Slugger look like?
I recieved one of your lower weight KP Dancer fighter builds awhile back as a gift. I have had alot of regional success with that fighter build but tend to struggle at higher rated Contenders. I know it's not the fighter build as much as it is the fight plan being used in the fight. But, just to make sure that I am heading in the right direction, it would be nice to know what that fighters AP's should be at 28(28).
Estimating using your gift fighters starting AP's, this is what I was aiming for at 28(28).
20 0
27 30
12 18
5'2" cut= low bld= VH Weight= 113
So how far am I off?
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:36 AM
Small Gym,
AoP mentioned above his stats for a KP Dancer:
STR = .7*AGL
AGL = SPD
CND starts at 14, ends at 17
CHN starts at 10 ends at 11 or 12
Build = VL
I assume Low Cuts
That would give you something like this at 28(28) if he is 5'2", like your guy is:
18 6
27 27
12 17
Or this, I guess:
19 6
26 27
12 17
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 6:50 AM
He also suggested these ratios for an Agile Slugger:
STR = AGL
SPD = .8*AGL
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:12 AM
And what sort of fighter is one that has high speed but isn't necessarily tall? Could these potentially be a danger to counter punchers as well, as they lose a lot of the Counter style ability, possibly to the extent of it being harmful, as well as their feint advantage?
A fighter like that would probably be a VH balanced with a big SPD bias. There really isn't a name for that fighter.
The trouble with that build is that you have to give up AGL and STR to get the SPD and then all you have is feint or inside/clinch to get bonuses. One of my CP builds would be equal in speed, maybe 3 inches taller and greater in agility. He might actually be able to use ropes and win on efficiency while scoring better.
I've seen VH speed demons from time to time, but they take a lot of ips against the sluggers and ropists due to the STR and AGL that they sacrifice to get the speed. So, despite the fact that they might be okay against CP fighters, they still have a whole lot of other builds that could give them big trouble.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:15 AM
What type of builds do you tend/enjoy to run in heavies?
I covered this above, but I'll repeat it.
In heavies, I like to use a huge speed bias over agility, often +5 to +7 and a little less STR than in lower divisions. I almost always use VL build.
I won't build a heavyweight kp dancer with less than 12/4 (STR/KP) by 28/28.
I usually start heavies with 11 chin and move to 13 chin by 28. CND is the same as above
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Posted by: Lord Bremen [JI]
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 10:18 AM
AOP, I think he was talking about a speedy but short CP. Basically STR = AGI = .75SPD or something of that nature. So they would be using counter to get some agi, while also dealing out damage and winning on points.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 3:51 PM
That is the oldschool CP which was never very viable. Even if you build them VL, they still have the same problems I mentioned with ropists and sluggers. They steal APs from STR and AGL to get SPD and they get no extra AGL from height because they are shorter. They just suck up ips from sluggers and ropists and their speed doesn't do them much good at the end because they are so tired.
They also cut more because their AGL is low. This kind of fighter going 5/7/8 (counter) against a typical ropist at 5/7/8 (ropes) would draw the round, lose about 1+% on efficiency and have a 17-20% chance of cuts vs the ropist's 10%.
It just isn't such a great build.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 4:39 PM
AOP...
How good do you have to be in math to understand the percentages and formulas and to write fight plans?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Thursday September 13, 2007 - 7:26 PM
Axis,
I have no idea how to answer that. Lots of managers are and have been extremely successful at this game and have little idea what is in the formulas. They play by feel. Many people say Prod played like that.
I started with a very mathematical approach, but now I mostly understand the mathematical implications and can play by feel with mathematical underpinnings.
If you are not a math guy but you want a tool that will help you understand the comparative efficiency implications of various tactics against various opponents, I recommend you download Albino's calculator, which is still available on his website.
Albino's Page
I still use this tool quite often to find the most efficient lines against probable tactics used by the opponent. It isn't something you need to use for every round; the sim is better for that. But if you are trying to decide whether to open with 4b/8/8 or 5b/7/8, it will tell you which one is likely to win the round and what the damage would be. Also, you can put in theoretical round situations like, "Would I stun him if I were at 75% and he was at 66% and I threw 5h/11/4 (inside) and he threw 10/3/7 (ring). That would be useful to know because you could then write a conditional that said:
if opponent < strong and endurance_percent > 75 and round >= 10 then 5h/11/4 (inside)
to flash if he is in the habit of going 10/3/7 after the 10th round.
Basically, this tool does the math for you. It won't write the fp for you, but it is useful to help you decide about what is the best tactic for certain situations that might arise.
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 1:14 AM
Sympathy,
I know I said KP Dancer but was really referring to his gift fighter that he sent me awhile back.
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 1:15 AM
AoP,
Any answer to my post above would be appreciated.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 8:01 AM
Okay since you're giving out fighter build help here... what would a typical AoP 28(28) KP Dancer or Agile Slugger look like?
What weight division?
Estimating using your gift fighters starting AP's, this is what I was aiming for at 28(28).
20 0
27 30
12 18
5'2" cut= low bld= VH Weight= 113
So how far am I off?
Not bad. I might switch one CND into SPD or STR, but otherwise that's a good build.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 11:15 AM
What would you say the lowest chin a fighter could possibly have without being totally demolished nowadays be?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Friday September 14, 2007 - 10:21 PM
Atlantis,
That depends on the types of fighters in the region where he fights. If there is a lot of big kp around, I'd say 10 and 11 to 12 in contenders. If there are mostly non kp fighters, you can get away with 8-9 in regionals and 9 in contenders with a ropist.
I wouldn't recommend below 8. It is just too easy to get hurt below 8, even in regionals.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Saturday September 15, 2007 - 12:02 AM
Ok thanks. I was considering creating a 6 chin fighter just to see how well he would do, but if its inadvisable then I probably won't.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Sunday September 16, 2007 - 11:27 PM
AOP, since we're playing "Let's quiz AOP", I have 3 for ya....
1) If you could create a bhop middleweight, what would his stats be at status 1/1 and what would his stats be at 28/28?
2) With the sim being a bit biased towards agility, do u think there is any hope for sluggers or clinchers?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 7:53 AM
1) What is a bhop middleweight? The only bhop I know is Brooklyn House of Pain.
2) Hope is based on whom you fight and how you fight them. There is always hope. The clinchers, if they are true clinchers (STR>= 1.5*AGL) will have almost and impossible time against the ropists and agile sluggers. Sluggers have a better chance, especially if they don't stray too far from balanced.
3) I didn't see a third question. You said you had three.
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Posted by: Sympathy
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 8:50 AM
AoP,
A bhop middleweight is Bernard Hopkins.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 1:17 PM
Thanks Sympathy i should of used the full name.
3rd question is about counter and ropes....
some people seem to think that with the changes that they were improved too much....me being one of them...wouldn't it be ok to see if they were toned down just a bit?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 1:58 PM
Answer to question 3. I don't agree. Counter and ropes are right where they need to be. Both were completely dead styles before the change. Now they are vibrant, useful styles. They win against some fighter types and lose against others. I don't think they need to be changed at all.
This isn't really a Q&A question. This is a sim design question that has been brought up and refuted in sim design a number of times since the change by people who like to run high STR sluggers. These fighter types used to totally dominate WeBL until this change and now they are difficult to win with. This was a positive change IMO because fights were just boring body bashing with the first guy cut usually losing. Now there are numerous tactical alternatives that make fights and fighters more varied and interesting.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 2:43 PM
Okay, do you want your Hopkins fighter with or without KP. Personally, I think he is not really a KP fighter. He had a lot of early KO's early in his career against journeymen, but later it was mostly decisions or later round TKOs.
So, I'm thinking a tall VL CP fighter with great speed, reasonably good AGL and not overwhelming STR but enough to not be dominated.
With that in mind here is how I would build him at 28/28. Basically, an AOP counter puncher with a stronger speed bias.
17 0
27 24
11 17
VL
6'1"
low
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Posted by: Great Gnu`s Garage (WILBOO Inc.)[BTP]
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 3:18 PM
Art,
Ropists I feel should start with 8 chin and 12 cnd. It has been the most effective starting point in my opinion for the ropists.
I would have one or two more aglity at 28, but not a bad version. I have played around with spd and str both being .66 of AGL all the way to .5 of AGL. Both have won WT's but the latter can have some trouble hurting opponents enough.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 5:14 PM
hmmmm....what would you starting stats be at status 1?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 17, 2007 - 7:57 PM
Starting at status 0:
9 0
13 11
9 14
6'1"
VL
low
Train agility first. Then STR, AGL, SPD, etc. He will have to move up to S-middle for a while, but later he will straddle the two weights and be able to fight either up or down.
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Posted by: Atlantis Gym
Date: Wednesday September 19, 2007 - 6:05 AM
Just wondering, but do you remember your longest winning streak with one fighter without a loss beforehand (#-0-0) ever, and what fighter build you managed it with?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Sunday September 23, 2007 - 1:46 PM
I had one counter puncher win a WT at 19-0-3. (Eamon "Whistler" McNulty)
I had another counter puncher go 19-0-1 and lost in the WT fight. (Ernie "The Enforcer" Gallo)
I had a dancer go 18-0 and lost in the WT fight. (Abe "The Rabbi" Schoenbaum)
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Posted by: Bangladesh. -UV-
Date: Monday September 24, 2007 - 1:40 AM
Art - can you teach me how to use KP?
: )
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Monday September 24, 2007 - 6:47 AM
Bangla,
You seem to be doing just fine with kp.
;-)
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Posted by: Stark Slugger Society
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 12:34 AM
I fail to perform consistantly good with anything but KP...
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Posted by: Sardonic`s Gym <UV>
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 2:39 AM
Stark, give me a holler. I'm not stranger, and I'd be glad to lend to you what I know. Bang and I share a clan, and I'm sure he would be glad to tell you the ways I've helped him understand endurance. Likewise, I'd be glad to tell you what he's taught me of KP.
My email is on my gym page... don't _ever_ hesitate to contact me. I am sure the same goes for Bang.
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Posted by: Stark Slugger Society
Date: Saturday October 13, 2007 - 5:10 AM
I will probably do that. BTW, Jim, I'm sure with all the nonsence last week with deleting posts and whatnot you might have forgotten, I never got the e-mail about what we were talking about with the Welcoming letters and stuff. I am still interested in talking about that and seeing if we can't improve gym retention. Anyway drop me a line when you get time. I don't like to bother mods unless it's absolutely needed and then I try to reach them through here! Anyway talk to you later
